Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[power boat jim]

I turned a radion on once will it was sitting face down on my chair and it burnt 11 holes in my chair in about 10 seconds

I have burned my wrist on the lenses also. It strange that they are so hot but an inch or so away there is so little heat.

 

[oreo57]

Wow vho ballasts only last 6 months???

I was surprised by that statement as well. The article is "greenhouse" centric so there is that.
And as I was corrected on earlier, T5VHO, not T12..

http://www.coralvue.com/icecap-660-vho-ballast-120vac-60hz

One does have to wonder when this:

Fully Repairable

is a primary selling point..

That doesn't make sense. I had them running MUCH longer than that in the '80s and '90s.

Well it isn't the 80-90's anymore.. Cheap Chinese power caps..

 

[shred5]

I'm an electrical engineer too and while I agree that photons are photons, the biological response to spectrum intensity distribution is not. The same goes for the directional nature of the light sources- single source vs multiple directional sources.

I know you're trying not to sound like a know it all, but laughing at people isn't exactly supportive of different ideas.

I'm not taking a side because I think the light sources compliment each other, but they're not the same.

In terms of historical stances, I personally think HQI double ended and mogul designs are not equivalent either. There's room enough in the discussion for everyone to disagree

Agreed.. I think people do not think of the coral in terms of light and how they react with proteins and pigments, they just think of the zooxanthellae and photosynthesis with chlorophyll.
If all we thought about was chlorophyll and that was the only factor but it aint.

 

[oreo57]

they just think of the zooxanthellae and photosynthesis with chlorophyll.

That would be a mistake..

All reef-forming corals depend on the photosynthesis performed by their algal symbiont, and such corals are therefore restricted to the photic zone. The intensity of light in this zone declines over several orders of magnitude—from high and damaging levels at the surface to extreme shade conditions at the lower limit1. The ability of corals to tolerate this range implies effective mechanisms for light acclimation and adaptation2. Here we show that the fluorescent pigments3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 (FPs) of corals provide a photobiological system for regulating the light environment of coral host tissue. Previous studies have suggested that under low light, FPs may enhance light availability4, 5. We now report that in excessive sunlight FPs are photoprotective; they achieve this by dissipating excess energy at wavelengths of low photosynthetic activity, as well as by reflecting of visible and infrared light by FP-containing chromatophores. We also show that FPs enhance the resistance to mass bleaching of corals during periods of heat stress, which has implications for the effect of environmental stress on the diversity of reef-building corals, such as enhanced survival of a broad range of corals allowing maintenance of habitat diversity.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v408/n6814/full/408850a0.html#B7
http://pages.uoregon.edu/svetlana/FEBSJ.pdf

http://www.iflscience.com/environment/revealed-why-some-corals-are-more-colourful-others

Acropora coral shows blue colours in response to mechanical damage. Wiedenmann / D'Angelo, Author provided

 

[gus6464]

The ocean has plenty of proof of that. I am curious if you even have a reef tank? You certainly have the ability to look up specs and are a Whiz with Google. I am wondering if all of your knowledge translates into a nice tank as well?

Not picking on you, just curious. Having a nice tank is certainly not required here, many of us are between tanks but still share our years of experience.

 

[mhucasey]

I don't think asking to see evidence of your success is some kind of ridiculous request. I look through the post history for everyone who makes claims here looking for pictures, opinions, past declarations.

If i see page after page of posts about DIY LEDs, but no posts with pictures of an aquarium, all that tells me is that the person may be an expert on creating light with LEDs. Sorry, but I need evidence that corals grow well under that light to believe.

 

[Wazzel]

Wow vho ballasts only last 6 months???

Mine had 6 years of operation on it when I sold it.

 

[sirreal63]

That may be 6 months for the T5 VHO ballast, the T12 variety last years and years, I have one that may be pushing 10 years old. I am also suspect of that 6 month claim but I won't be buying T5 VHO to find out.

 

[Johnseye]

Here's a good example of DIY LED succeeding or at least sustaining a reef with pictures. I would guess he has before pictures if we ask nicely. On MH/T5 combo prior. Past 2 years on LED. Some coral did well, some not so well. Lessons to be learned here. I've seen this tank in person. Even got frags. I was impressed.

http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/162-tank-of-the-month

 

[shred5]

Here's a good example of DIY LED succeeding or at least sustaining a reef with pictures. I would guess he has before pictures if we ask nicely. On MH/T5 combo prior. Past 2 years on LED. Some coral did well, some not so well. Lessons to be learned here. I've seen this tank in person. Even got frags. I was impressed.

http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/162-tank-of-the-month

To be honest. He runs some t-5 with the leds.

He also states:

The tank was switched to use LED lighting 2 years ago. For the prior 6 years, the tank was running on 400 W Radium and four T5 bulbs running on ice cap 660 ballast. Not all corals liked the LED switch. I lost most of my milliporas, after the switch. I should say that all the stags love the LEDs. I am seriously thinking of switching back to Halide and T5 combination or T5 and Led combination.

so he is thinking of switching back too halides or possibly led t5 combo even though he really is now.

I think hybrid fixtures are really the way too go when it comes to led.

 

[Wazzel]

I think hybrid fixtures are really the way too go when it comes to led.

IMO I think it depends. If you are moving from another system on a mature tank it would probably make sense to do a hybrid system. Coming from new, I think you can do LED only without much issues. With the option in operating condition, diode mix, coverage, etc you have to have a whole different mindset to work LED.

If it were me I would not pull a Mh or T-5 system off a tank I was happy with just to fiddle with LEDs. I tend to advise people not to do so also. I like LED, but there are so many reason why not to pull a working lighting system off a tank.

 

[Johnseye]

To be honest. He runs some t-5 with the leds.

He also states:



so he is thinking of switching back too halides or possibly led t5 combo even though he really is now.

I think hybrid fixtures are really the way too go when it comes to led.

He runs actinic T5s. Not sure that counts.

He is thinking of switching back, but there is 2 years of DIY LED pictures there. I also did point out he started with MH/T5.

Some pictorial evidence is better than nothing.

 

[theatrus]

I was surprised by that statement as well. The article is "greenhouse" centric so there is that.
And as I was corrected on earlier, T5VHO, not T12..

http://www.coralvue.com/icecap-660-vho-ballast-120vac-60hz

One does have to wonder when this:

Fully repairable

is a primary selling point..



Well it isn't the 80-90's anymore.. Cheap Chinese power caps..

I was able to repair my IceCap 660, pre CoralVue. The main input filter caps (Nichicon, though only 85C) exploded. Apart from having to drill out four rivets, everything was straightforward with easy to source parts.

 

[mussel and hate]

I don't think asking to see evidence of your success is some kind of ridiculous request. I look through the post history for everyone who makes claims here looking for pictures, opinions, past declarations.

If i see page after page of posts about DIY LEDs, but no posts with pictures of an aquarium, all that tells me is that the person may be an expert on creating light with LEDs. Sorry, but I need evidence that corals grow well under that light to believe.

I can only speak for myself here but there are compelling reasons for me to refrain from posting images of my tank for RC to view. I have posted many pictures on another forum over the years. A forum where I actually know the other posters and we get together to share drinks, food and socialize. I have no desire to have my anonymous RC account linked with my actual identity, address, everyday email, phone number etc. So sorry RC doesn't get to see my tank.

The whole pics or it didn't happen phenomenon is just a new Web age logical fallacy I like to call argumentum ad pictura. Having a picture doesn't prove a claim to be true and not having a picture certainly doesn't demonstrate a claim to be false. So where is the logic?

I've built a custom LED luminaire for my reef and it works well for the animals I keep which are mostly soft corals such as sarcophyton, sinularia, nepthea, capnella, rhodactis, discosoma, sympodium, briarium and entacmaea quadricolor . You can take my word for it or not. I'm ok with either.

Even had I no concern with separating my various online personas, the trend in this thread is to dismiss with condescension and derision any reefer than doesn't keep specific challenging acropora as being irelevent to the discussion regardless of their other experience or accomplishments.

 

[sirreal63]

Another reason is there are previous members who have been "moved on" who can't take the rejection and come back with a new I.P. and username. Showing their tank may make other people to remember who that was. Typically when people are new here, they introduce themselves, show or explain what they are doing, ask questions, seek advice etc. etc. They typically do not immediately jump into technical discussions or hide their location. That may not be the case here, the jury is still out. Matt's point is also clear, it points to someone who may have technical knowledge but that doesn't always translate into the ability to grow corals. If they cannot put into practice what they try to show, in some ways it invalidates a lot of what they say. Anybody can read a book, copy links and show their ability to Google, that should not imply they know what they are doing.

My curiosity remains and it was just curiosity, not a calling out. He is under no obligation to show his tank, if he even has one. At this point everyone should know and understand LED's grow corals, that dates back to the Solaris in 2006 or so.

 

[mhucasey]

Another reason is there are previous members who have been "moved on" who can't take the rejection and come back with a new I.P. and username. Showing their tank may make other people to remember who that was. Typically when people are new here, they introduce themselves, show or explain what they are doing, ask questions, seek advice etc. etc. They typically do not immediately jump into technical discussions or hide their location. That may not be the case here, the jury is still out. Matt's point is also clear, it points to someone who may have technical knowledge but that doesn't always translate into the ability to grow corals. If they cannot put into practice what they try to show, in some ways it invalidates a lot of what they say. Anybody can read a book, copy links and show their ability to Google, that should not imply they know what they are doing.

My curiosity remains and it was just curiosity, not a calling out. He is under no obligation to show his tank, if he even has one. At this point everyone should know and understand LED's grow corals, that dates back to the Solaris in 2006 or so.

Well said.
I would hope that everyone here participates in these forums because they want to advance the hobby so that more people are successful, not less. Having worked a short time for a LFS years ago, I also know that hobby is supported by a cutthroat and cynical business. That business places a priority on getting customers to spend as much money as possible up front because the vast majority of people who get into this hobby are out of it in less than two years. To me that is sad. My biggest frustration with LED is the way that they are pushed onto new customers, typically with promises that cant be kept. When things don't work out, the customer gets forced into buying more units or just giving up - and there is a lot of bruised pride that goes along with admitting that enormous amount of money spent was wasted.

I am baffled by the idea that wanting to see pictures that demonstrate success is a fallacy. There is no entrance exam for the internet. The entrance exam for Reef Central only asks if you are human. That pretty much means that anyone can come on here and say anything they like while hiding behind the anonymity of the internet. I've seen people here post about their amazing results with lighting, filtration, feeding, etc in their current tank but then when I look at their posting history they have a tank that is a couple of months old and barren. Mostly I'll choose to believe that they are just overly enthusiastic rather than just lying.

If you don't post pictures I don't think you are lying, but i have to weigh what you say with a big grain of salt. If you post a picture I will evaluate the results based on what I'm seeing. If I disagree, perhaps our definition of success is just different. As it stands now, this thread has evolved and I think that its pretty clearly understood that LEDs will grow all kinds of coral when there are enough units with the proper spectrum. What many of the people in the MH/T5 camp are looking for is success with the more difficult SPS, including growth and rich, vibrant color. Are we picky? You bet.

 

[Aqualund]

He runs actinic T5s. Not sure that counts.

He is thinking of switching back, but there is 2 years of DIY LED pictures there. I also did point out he started with MH/T5.

Some pictorial evidence is better than nothing.

I can't think of anything that would count MORE since that is precisely a range of lighting that LED's can't accommodate.

 

[Aqualund]

I've built a custom LED luminaire for my reef and it works well for the animals I keep which are mostly soft corals such as sarcophyton, sinularia, nepthea, capnella, rhodactis, discosoma, sympodium, briarium and entacmaea quadricolor . You can take my word for it or not. I'm ok with either.

I haven't seen anyone on this thread debate the ability of LED's to sustain softies with great success.

 

[mhucasey]

He runs actinic T5s. Not sure that counts.

He is thinking of switching back, but there is 2 years of DIY LED pictures there. I also did point out he started with MH/T5.

Some pictorial evidence is better than nothing.

Correct, and he was very up-front about losing all his millies. The pics from his tank can be used as good evidence that some corals do better than others under LEDs.

 

[oreo57]

Correct, and he was very up-front about losing all his millies. The pics from his tank can be used as good evidence that some corals do better than others under LEDs.

Interesting addition to that statement." See the A. millipora section..
Can't remember if advanced Aquarist links are censored though..

Feature Article: Coral growth under Light Emitting Diode and Light Emitting Plasma: a cross-family comparison

By Tim Wijgerde, Michaël Laterveer
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2013/2/aafeature

The pics from his tank can be used as good evidence that some corals do better than others under LEDs.

Not sure why that is even a question..

sorry, just a data junkie..
Stuff like THIS is what is frustrating from an "observers" viewpoint.. :
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2535051

a simplistic approach would be to say a. millipora is a full spectrum coral.. I don't care "how" it gets full spectrum from but needs lots of "fill light"
It's origins as a shallow reef organism kind of leads in that direction..