Anyone try Marine Environment dual phase formula salt mix???

This just needs to be done, as it was brought up else where ;)

What about 13 3/4#, 14# & 15# pound packages of like chemistry making the same salinity solution? It is not going to happen.

Simple math and reading Craig's report. He weighed out 35 grams of each salt and added it to water to give a final vol of 1 L. He then measured the salinity. They ranged from 2-7 ppm lower than NSW. Why ? The weight of the water in the salt mixes. Each 35 grams had between 2- 7 grams of water in them.

Lets pretend there is salt with zero water in, thus 35 grams in 1 L would yield 35 ppt. And another salt of 35 grams yields 30 ppt, as 5 grams of that 35 grams is water.

30/35 = 15% and 15 % of 15 lbs = 2.25 lbs. 15 -2.25 =12.27 lbs. That means that a bag of salt with no water will yield a salinity of 30 ppt if it weighed 12.75 lbs and a bag with 5 grams of water/35 grams weight, would need a weight of 15 lbs to give the same salinity of 30 ppt.

So, that is a 12.75 lb bag vs 15 lbs bag both giving the same salinity, of like chemistry, in the same number of gallons of water and both giving 30 ppt salinity. :D

and that is like chemistry making the same salinity solution? No proof or documents required. It is simple weight vol. relationships. And one could expand on this with 2 grams, 3 grms, etc., of water / 35 grams of salt in a 1 L solution.

I had posted when the thread was locked, so it did not get posted.

Sorry if I should not have brought it up in this thread but this needed to be resolved.
 
We are not debating the salt. There is nothing any more wrong with it than any other salt. All salts have issues, it is a choice, what ever works best for you is the one to use.

I see I made a typo error. That is 14 % or more exactly 14.28 %not 15 but will make little difference. And should be 5/35. I was just being short, 85 % - 100 = 15 %
 
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I did not discuss the amount of moisture (hydrates) in marine salts for two reasons:

1) The majority of marine salts contain about the same amount of moisture.

E.g. packages of: IO, RC, SC, CL, O, RS, CM, BS, ME. that were tested for moisture within about 90 days of manufacture contained virtually the same amount of moisture (water).

Sealed packages of some brands that are 6+ months can pick up mositure that penetrates their packaging material. This can yield skewed hydration.

2) The moisture content was not relivant to the core issue of more marine salts makes more salt water. Less marine salts makes less salt water.

A 12 3/4 pound package of brand XXX will yield less salt water at the same salinity or specific gravity as 15 pounds of the same chemistry.

If anyone has doubts, simply take 13 pounds of your current marine salt and mix it into 50 gallons of clean fresh water. In 24 hours check the salinity.

Then add one more pound of the same salts into the 50 gallons you are making (total 14 pounds). Check the salinity in 24 hours.

Then add an additional one pound of the same salts into the same 50 gallons of water you are making (total 15 pounds). Check the salinity in 24 hours.

Post your findings or results.
 
I said where my result came form Dr. Craig Bingman and even your website from your own report. You said it can't be done. I just proved it can. Now Dr. Craig Bingman does not know what he is doing. Now Bingman's report is no good but in your own words you wished he tested yours. People can read Craig's results and review my math. It makes no difference what the moisture is in the bag at manufacturing. It is the moisture in the bag when being tested and taken off the shelf with x self time. That is what the hobbyist is doing.

The majority of marine salts contain about the same amount of moisture

Your own website shows a variation in moisture of 7-18 % and you are saying they are about the same moisture and all salts were made within 90 days, according to your last comment. So that is an error on your part you have to admit ;) Big deference between 7% and 16 %. That would equate to a ~ 1 lb difference in the bags producing the same salinity in the same number of gallons. Math does not lie and the facts speak for themselves. They are all on your website and the Bingman report. The Bingman report shows a 2-7 ppt difference from NSW and that 7-18 % from your website is equal to a 2.45 ppt - 6.3ppt difference. Pretty close correct. And it is your salt, Bio-Sea, that has the highest moisture and on your own report.

Some of the bags you tested for sample 1 to 2, show off-sets in moisture of 4% with most being 2 % sample to sample, a span of ~ 1-1.5 ppt in salinity. That is not the same salinity as you seem to be calling it. 33.5 -34 ppt does not = 35 ppt.


The Composition Of Several Synthetic Seawater Mixes
http://web.archive.org/web/20001215...om/fish2/aqfm/1999/mar/features/1/default.asp



If anyone has doubts, simply take 13 pounds of your current marine salt and mix it into 50 gallons of clean fresh water. In 24 hours check the salinity

Then add one more pound of the same salts into the 50 gallons you are making (total 14 pounds). Check the salinity in 24 hours.

Then add an additional one pound of the same salts into the same 50 gallons of water you are making (total 15 pounds). Check the salinity in 24 hours.

Post your findings or results.


This means nothing and shows nothing as the salt is from the same bag. One needs to test salt A against salts x, y, z etc..

You said and the reason for my last post was It is not going to happen. Well Mike, it just happen and based on your data from your website and the Bingman report. You can't refute it :D

This will be my last post on this thread. I just wanted to clear this up and that is it.
 
This simple matter is not cleared up with information Boomer offered.

I said "like" chemistry. Taking salt from the same package cannot be more "like" than taking samples from different brands. Or sometimes taking salts from the same brand, but different packages.

More net weight of "like" marine salts will make more salt water at the same salinity. This cannot possibly be simplier.

Do the simple experiement. Take 13 pounds of any brand of marine salt and mix it into 50 US gallons of water. Test salinity with a refractometer after 24 hours.

Add one more pound of the same salt into the same 50 gallons of water. Check salinity after 24 hours.

Add one pound (total now 15 pounds) to the same 50 gallons of water. Check salinity after 24 hours.

Post your results.
 
yes, it is time for a new s-15 type report so that everyone is satisified! A true non-biased report, not saying the first one wasn't, would be great. Whether that report was factual or not, it doesn't really matter cause it is way outdated. A new test is needed to show everyone what they want to see and help salt manufacturers to step up and make their product better if they so choose. They definitely aren't going to change their salts when there is no real test showing true to life results showing their flaws, why would they!
 
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We don't need another S-15 report , IMO.

Any commercial salt mix purchased today is adequate for todays reef tanks. Some just need a little more supplementing than others.

The only difference is what a particular tanks demand is.

THERE IS NO PERFECT SALT MIX

Only the perfect mix for your tank. (I've said this a hundred times)

Once one understands the big (3) Cal, Alk and Mg......... the rest is........ well, worrying for nothing.

Salt manufacturers know what they are doing. They are not going to put anything in their formulas to kill tanks.

They all have different levels of the big 3 because everyones tank is different.

You are not going to satisfy everyone because, everyones tanks have different needs. Hence the different formulas.

There is a reason why certain fish and certain corals survive in certain parts of the world. Because they like the water parameters they live in.

I believe, one should try various salt mixes until they find what makes their tank thrive.

This bunk about a perfect salt mix, or the best salt mix just isn't going to make it in every tank.

:)
 
Got the salt now and did a large water change 2 days ago.One thing I have noticed is im not seeing the algea build up on the glass like I have in the past.Two days so far without useing my mag float.As far as testing goes it did test better then my reef crystals.Time will tell me about switching back or not.
 
This thread should be called " To waste a day read this"

This thread should be called " To waste a day read this"

I have an alge issue. As usual when I asked the guys at the aquarium shops I recieved six differant responces. I asked on-line and five more responces. Then I added a phosban reactor and 25 snails and the problem is deminishing (Knowone around here sells or discusses ferric oxide (roa-phos, phos-ban, phos-lock)). I found these in a catalog. The only media I could find locally for the issue was the ciramic crap that leaches back after a day or so.
One guy I talked to said I should try a differant salt. ( I'm not a fan of this guy as he lied to his employer to keep me from being hired at his aquarium shop) I asked him, "Well based on what I've told you, what salt would you suggest."

As usual nothing but run around.

I decided today to see what the masses had to say, after all who knows better than the multitude of consumers who use the products.

So, I spent the day reading every word of every report mentioned on this thread.

Here are my findings.
*salt contains salt (imagine that)
*salt is wet (almost everything on earth contains a little water)
*salt changes as cost of addatives change (like bean burritos)
*salt companies rip off customers (duh, like every industry)

The only thing you can ever count on in this hobby is knowone knows whats best, ten people have ten ideas and very few jive with the others. I use Kent salt, and when I tell people that, they say... Oh my god that the worst...

I'd never heard of a two part salt before today. I don't think I'll try it either as it is simply unbacked by any proven facts that are trace-able. I can't see how anybody could try and use a twenty five year old unbacked study to sell anything that changes with the market.

Based on a study done in 1899. Ford is the best brand of car made in America. Holds no merrit.

Do the stupid study again, Next week it's void because the cost of iron or strodium went through the roof and they (without telling us) dropped the content to virtually none.

The only problem here is the lack of decent behavior with the salt companies. If they wanted you to know what was in YOUR salt it would be on the package, Not an inflated statment about "contains 60, or all, or 72 trace elements".
It should list each element and a rough average of that batches levels. Then you could base your purchase on facts not opinion.

So, one wasted day and all I know is KNOWONE KNOWS!
 
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On the GFO, a number of brands are available online and are the best choice IMO to lower PO4 levels in a tank. I use Warner Marine's PhoSar and it works very well for me.

On the salt comments, I tend to agree with you to a degree. Salt manufacturers should be able to tell us on the package what levels of calcium, alkalinity and magnesium to expect when mixing at say 35 ppt.
This seems to be the major difference in the major brands. I imagine most of them have about the same trace elements. Consistency is a big thing for most reefers.

There is nothing wrong with Kent Sea Salt. Whoever told you that does not know what they are talking about. In fact, there is nothing wrong with most of the major salt brands. Some may be a little more ionically unbalanced than others but this works for some folks. Everyones tanks have different needs and choosing the right salt for your particular situation is key. As long as one knows what levels the freshly mixed batch are, they can make adjustments to achieve their target levels.

I'm sorry you wasted your day reading all of our gibberish but I believe if you do some exploring around here you will find some extremely knowledgeable and experienced reefers.

No one can tell you what the best salt mix is because there is no best salt mix. Only the best salt mix for your particular situation.

I happen to share your opinion that another salt study is a waste of time. I know whats in my salt mix. At least the important stuff. :D
 
I don't really believe a study is a complete waste of time. but untill some salt company does analize there batches and report the findings on the bag. It is void before we the consumer can even read the report.
This makes the study a complete waist of money and would likely just lead to everyone arguing again about how there batch of instant ocean was 510 cal.
Also, I've noticed, and it was mentioned earlier in the thread, that a 50 gallon bag makes two twenty five gallon batches, but the first batch can be very differant then the second. I would make the guess that some elements are more dence then the salt and not fully attatched the molicules of salt. This would allow for some elements of any salt to seperate in the bag and settle to wherever is the lowest point in the bag during shipping and storage. ( Like Panning for trace elements.) Then you buy it open it and start scooping. The second batch I just dump in the bag. I usually have to run this batch through a brine shrimp net to get all the undesolved partices out before adding it to the tank.

I used instant ocean last change and there were chunks of plastic in the bag. it was 2 parts per gallon plastic. LOL:D
 
I agree that some elements in a salt mix can get separated with settling and such.

However, it should be noted that Instant Ocean has been the most consistent salt mix over the last 20 years. And the most used.

Hard to argue with that. :)
 
one minor work around to settling out in the bag is that i mix the entire bag of I.O at a time, i dont have quite enough water to match excatly the salinity in my aquarium, but between waterchanges, the skimmer lowers the salt level, and then my waterchange with a high salinity brings me back to where i usally am, it works for me anyway.
 
<<< However, it should be noted that Instant Ocean has been the most consistent salt mix over the last 20 years. >>>




Can you refer to any salt consistency study to confirm that? :D
 
I don't think you can referance any study to prove anything, except what sea water comes out to, and this changes depending on location.
Such as why does every salt manufacturer tell you to maintain a cal. level of 400-450? Because that is best, yet I have only found two that mix at 400 or above? Most seam to hang around 380. that may be consistant but it's still wrong, they know it and print the correct level right on the bag/bucket.
If you read my first posting. I had a real problem with lousy sand. Every week I was changing water to reduce cal. I had a consistant reading of 1380!!! Right after a 50% water change with instant ocean (around 360-380). I could get the level under 1000. Yes that is 1000. Knowone could believe it was even possible. Yet test after test, even differant brands of test came out the same.
I tried every brand of salt and tested for cal. finding IO to contain the least.
I changed my sand to aragamax bahamma oolite, and the cal leveled to 450 after two water changes.

Now, I want calcium and didn't write down the results when I went through all that, so I am looking for a salt with a good ionic ballance to avoid PO4, AND has high cal.

Not one study I have read has really told me anything.
 
Howard, that is a fact. If you want to dispute it, bring it on.

ayort, if you want more calcium in your salt mix I would give you two choices. Coraife or Seachems Reef Salt.

I do a lot of testing and spend countless numbers of hours playing with this stuff. If you want the straight poop......... try Coralife. Actually Oceanic has a little more calcium but the alkalinity is lower then I like. Coralife is a little more balanced in my testing. :)
 
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