Apex vs. RKE

[Deleted member 143833]

And my last questions answered about multi-display and power fail over options.

Thanks again andyew (I here we are nearly neighbors).

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Does the RKE support a remote display #e.g., if I have a remote probe at a second tank can I have a remote display there?# This is something I like about the Apex and plan to use as I have a number of tanks a distance apart.
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Not at this time. I use my web interface more than naything to look at overall statistics, and as it happens I ahve multiple tanks controlled by my RKE. Although a remote pad might be nice, I can also put up an RKL for 99 bucks and includes a PC4 (so basically 9 bucks for a display panel) for PH, ect...if I want. The down side is that part is not tied into my RKE if I do it that way. With the web interface I really don't need multiple displays so tend to not think of this as a big issue. It would be a nice thing for sure, but whether I check the web page or the display, I am not going to test for things the RKE is monitoring for me already.


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And if you don't mind a minor clarification on the power out abilities; you mentioned I could keep the base unit powered off battery, what happens to the AC interfaces? One think I find interesting is the ability to detect a circuit going out in my fish room #I have AC control units on separate circuits# and I plan to take advantage of the ability to detect 1 outlet loosing power to bring online backup systems #e.g., if my main curc pump outlet looses power I plan to increase Tunze circ#?
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It is subjective. On a singular socket or PC4 strip, if I ahve others on seperate ciruits (which I do), then I can control this same features with an alarm function. If I ahve a return pump on PC4-1, and put a redundant pump on PC4-2 which is on a seperate circuit that PC4-1, I can set an alarm to to turn on the socket on PC4-2 if the status of PC4-1 goes off. Even though the circuit is down on PC4-1, the head unit and bus have power and detect the state of the socket. So I can do backups on a per socket basis with seperate circuits without issue. This lends to my preference (and it is only that) of having a PC4 versus 8 plugs per power module. I can disburs emy load and carry more amperage where needed. Add in the virtual sockets of the PC1, and some really cool prgramming can be done, including power off delays (or you can use the channel to an unused real socket if you want but that to me is a waste of money) in case of outage. The alarm function is used for more than just alarms..it can act as a bridge for functions based off of controller option, or socket state reading to execute timers.

Now, in event of a power outage, the 9v battery (or use a wall plug adapter to a UPS if you want) keeps the bus powered. The head unit does not lose power.

I hope this wasn't too confusing, but these are some good questions. BTW, where did you originally post these questions? I amv ery active on the DA forums and do not recall seeing this there.

 

[andywe]

Ok, bedtime..have to work at my job to payfor my reef addiction LOL....

One final thought...after having jsut spent the last 30 munutes cleaning pre filters and emptying skimmer cups, here is my last thought!

The first company to invent a controller or module that cleans filter pads, cleans my tank glass, and empties my skimmer cups without runing extra pipe through my media room I will buy on the spot!

 

[Deleted member 143833]

It is subjective. On a singular socket or PC4 strip, if I ahve others on separate circuit (which I do), then I can control this same features with an alarm function. If I have a return pump on PC4-1, and put a redundant pump on PC4-2 which is on a separate circuit that PC4-1, I can set an alarm to to turn on the socket on PC4-2 if the status of PC4-1 goes off. Even though the circuit is down on PC4-1, the head unit and bus have power and detect the state of the socket. So I can do backups on a per socket basis with separate circuits without issue. This lends to my preference (and it is only that) of having a PC4 versus 8 plugs per power module. I can disburs emy load and carry more amperage where needed. Add in the virtual sockets of the PC1, and some really cool programming can be done, including power off delays (or you can use the channel to an unused real socket if you want but that to me is a waste of money) in case of outage. The alarm function is used for more than just alarms..it can act as a bridge for functions based off of controller option, or socket state reading to execute timers.

I am a little confused; are you saying that the RKE can detect power loss on a PC4 (vs the outlet being turned off by command)?

For example, if I have 2 PC4s, 1 on circuit A and another on circuit B and the breaker trips and the main power to PC4 (A) that the RKE program is able to detect the power loss and make conditional evaluations based on the detected power loss? I couldn't find anything in the manual to suggest this was possible so I'm curious...

I can see how you can keep the base alive with a battery and when power is lost have conditional responses based on the outlet the base is plugged into but not a separate outlet that the base is not connected to.

 

[andywe]

For example, if I have 2 PC4s, 1 on circuit A and another on circuit B and the breaker trips and the main power to PC4 (A) that the RKE program is able to detect the power loss and make conditional evaluations based on the detected power loss? I couldn't find anything in the manual to suggest this was possible so I'm curious...

No, the RKE does not detect t as a total power loss. The evaluation is on the socket state based off the criteria you program the alarm.

For example, in your scenario I have 2 return pumps. If I just set an alarm that if socket A goes to state off, then socket B goes on it gets me most the way there. The kicker is what if I am feeding? In theory, I would program socket A and B off for standby X. Under normal operation, if power was lost to socket A, socket B would kick in. It is all in how I program it. The RKE does not detect any power state across the module as a whole. Does this help clarify?

I am really off to bed this time...see you in the mroning

 

[Deleted member 143833]

Andy, thanks for the clarification, that helps. While I have you; can the PC4s revert to a programmed state in case of communications failure with the base unit?

Example; outlet the base is plugged into looses power and there is no battery backup?

The Apex has something really cool here which allows you to 'program' the EB8 #AC outlet controller# to change to on or off when they detect lost communications for whatever reason #e.g., cat chewed through the cord#

 

[andywe]

PC4 is not programmable that way at this time. with Power loss, all outlets go off upon communication loss with the head unit, and then when power is restored, they go back to their programmed state.

A caveat (good one) to this is that the GC1(head controller unit) is not powered by any 1 specific PC4 (if you have more than one) The bus is powered by all PC4's, so if you lose a PC4 to the dog, the others keep the bus running and the remaining function as programmed without any service interruption.

Further details should probably move to the DA forum as this is the Apex forum and I am sure Curt and others would rather discuss the Apex

 

[Deleted member 143833]

Thanks, I think you have answered all my questions...

I'll visit you over on DA if I have more...

 

[laverda]

Surprisingly one thing no one has mentioned in this thread is customer support and reliability. Having worked in the business doing customer support and having used both brands of products; I have to say, Neptune wins both these areas hands down. DA does not even come close.
The number of failed DA units was higher in 6 months, then it was in three years from Neptune. More Neptune products were sold in that same 6 month time period. When we had an issue, we could never get a hold of anyone from DA the same day, and calls were seldom returned. Curt almost always answered the phone right away, if not would promptly return the call almost always the same day.

 

[MrSandman]

So the RKE does not allow programming, or controlling remotely via the internet or cellphone/iPhone?

I know the Apex does (as does the AC3) and if the RKE does not then this should seal the deal for most people right there.

I can't tell you how many times this feature has saved my tank, or saved me from having to run back home or explain to a tanksitter how to reprogram or make a change to the controller. So many times i've left the house and either modified the program or manually controlled a piece of equipment on my tank either from a laptop or my iPhone/cellphone.

Now with the iPhone app if i have people coming over to see the tank and need to turn on the lights, or if i want to watch a movie in the room and need to shut off the lights, or if i am doing some maintenance and need to shut down a piece of equipment, or i want to feed the tank and put it into feed mode, i can either control it from my laptop, or even better, flip out my iphone and do it from anywhere in the house w/o having to even touch the controller.

Somebody said earlier that this was a preference and not a necessity. Trust me...if you have this function you will use it. Once you use it..you will rely on it. I use it all the time for unplanned events. It was this feature alone that steered me towards the Neptune products since the DA products didn't have it over a year and a half ago when i was in the market for a controller. Do they have it now?

 

[cbrguy]

While I agree that having internet control is cool and I do think that it is essential that DA comes out with the software to help program the unit (and maybe backup your configuration). I don't think that I would ever control my tank when I am not home. I never turn anything on or off now and I trap for most emergency situations (ie. temperature too high --> turn on chiller --> still too high turn off lights.... etc)

What would I want to do that when I am away? Say you turn off a pump and you lose internet connection. How would you recover? If say you turn on a pump/lights and you trip a breaker?

 

[RussM]

Regarding the ability to remotely monitor / control / configure via a web interface... yeah, it is desirable for many folks, and essential for some (like me, who travels extensively), it is by no means an absolute necessity.... for many, it's purely a convenience, and it does undoubtedly have a coolness factor. People ran controllers for years without Internet access.... and many still do and have no interest in that capability.... look at the popularly of base model controllers like the ACjr & RKL that have no network capability.

CBRGUY... we could come up with dozens of improbable long shot "what if?" failure scenarios like the 2 you brought up.... including far-fetched ones that would indicate that a controller is inherently dangerous and shouldn't be used at all. Let's try be realistic about it, eh?

 

[JB NY]

I would say that having the ability to access the Apex via http/RSS/telnet is a huge plus for me. With it for YEARS, at least 5, I have been able to:

Access the status of my tank over my phone, way before iPhones were around, update my web pages, shut off pumps, chiller, heaters etc before doing water changes with the push of a remote control button. Initiate the feed cycle from a light switch in the main living room. Interact with other sensors through out the house to detect, leaks, heat and humidity in room, and shut off or turn on things in the tank or the tank room based on outside influences. The list goes on, but right now I have scripts that interact with my Apex hundreds of times a day and update everything from tank status lights in other ends of the house, LCD screens (not those neptune sells) with status information, updating websites. I really could never imagine buying a new controller that could not allow me do do this kind of stuff.

Example. I was away for vacation out of the country a few weeks ago. I was able to remotely tell: When my fish were last fed, when the tank sitter last was in my house, temp/PH/ORP, water levels in the sump, temperature in the sump room, even if the skimmer was close to filling up. Now not all of this was directly from the Apex, but it was all on one web page that showed me both Apex and house status.

IMO, just the remote connect options of the Apex trumps many controllers.

 

[cbrguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15528463#post15528463 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> CBRGUY... we could come up with dozens of improbable long shot "what if?" failure scenarios like the 2 you brought up.... including far-fetched ones that would indicate that a controller is inherently dangerous and shouldn't be used at all. Let's try be realistic about it, eh?

That's wasn't realistic? I don't know how many times I've been on the road and had horrible internet connection.
Notice that I said 1. I think it's a cool feature 2.) that "I" would not use it. Everyone else can feel free to use it, but from my experience, I've turned on pumps/lights and had GFCI trip, breakers trip, pumps get air locked, debris(snails) gets sucked into the pumps etc..

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15528670#post15528670 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JB NY

IMO, just the remote connect options of the Apex trumps many controllers.

I'd agree with this. Also, the ability to name outlets!

 

[wwanthony]

I think Russ and JB have it right. I would be blind without the ability to access the controller remotely. I travel for business also. It is very nice to be able to assist the tank sitter (if your lucky to have one).

I don't consider it a cool feature, it is a must have. As I stated earlier in this thread, I think every modern control appliance should be network enabled.

GFCI trip, breakers trip, pumps get air locked, snails? Come on. You can come up with more things than that....can't you.

 

[cbrguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15528872#post15528872 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wwanthony

GFCI trip, breakers trip, pumps get air locked, snails? Come on. You can come up with more things than that....can't you.

You've never had any of those things happen? It's happend to me and I have my power spread out on 4 circuits.

Why do you continue to act like I didn't say it's a good feature (is that a better word for you). In fact if you go back through my posts you will see were I said if DA doesn't have that feature soon and Neptune gets a salinity probe then I will switch controllers.

and btw you can access the RKE you just can't control it. So if there is something wrong with my tank I just ask my wife to fix it.

 

[Eddie James]

I don't own either controller. I don't even have a tank yet. But I am doing a lot of learning since my last reef 12 years ago.

I started out looking at the RKE. I've studied all of their documentation.

Then I looked at Neptune. I've studied their documentation and web page also.

It really isn't even comparable. For what I need, the Neptune Apex is considerably better - especially the web stuff. I mean, it's not even close.

RKE just needs to make their offering more attractive.

 

[janes_mw]

I just read all three pages of posts. I have been in this for about 10 years and just started a new build. I was going to go to a RKE, but then I found the APEX. dollar for dollar and feature for feature, the APEX wins for me. I am in avionics and can tell you integrated vs modular comes down to cost because the parts are the same with the failure rates almost the same. There still is a little lack of insight on both companies, but I believe the APEX is a winner as you do not have to add anything to get the basics (pH, Temp, I/O monitor, Lighting, Aquasurf, Wavecontroll, internet, and easier programming). The RKE would cost a bit more for me as internet is a must (I want the controll feature) as well as the Tunze controll. Anyway, my .02! - mike

 

[tamu]

I have had both, the Apex rocks!

 

[bullitr]

i don't know if RKE have someone like "CURT" as a customer service.
the controller is a pain to set up if you have no experience with networking but again you have CURT!

 

[HeneryH]

RKE has a user forum just like this in the Reef Central Neighborhood. Go up one level then down to Digital Aquatics. I can't speak to their level of participation though, never been there more than a passing visit.