Are Bio Balls really THAT bad?
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lilfishbigreef
New member
i am glad this came up becasue i have been getting different opinions on the subject of nitrates and Bio-balls.
the way i am reading it between Chris and Gary they are not saying the same thing. the main difference is that Chris writes that ANY Media will produce Nitrates HOWEVER in order to produce aerobic ("oxygen loving") Bacteria you need air to come in contact with the surface of the media, CORRECT? so if that the case LIVE ROCK is submerged under water thus only housing Anaerobic "oxygen hating" bacteria so you cant have both if whatever media is under water, CORRECT? NO media actually produces bacteria it is only a favorable enviorment for them to grow, CORRECT? NOW NSW actually contains NITRATES tho the amounts vary depending upon location and conditions it is still always present, is it not? so having Nitrates in small quantities will assit in removing HARMFUL AMMONIA AND NITRITES so Nitrates are a benefit? why do people want to obtain 0 nitrates in their system? now keeping Bio-Balls free from dtritus is key because the break down of this material will hinder and cause adverse effect in the bateria that Bio-Balls are desisgned to house and also not cleaning them can cvause TOO MUCH aerobic ("oxygen loving") bacteria and nitrates will rise well above beneficial levels? Chris writes "Bio balls serve no purpose in a reef tank", Arent Nitrates a good thing in low amounts?
I hope i got this right? sorry if i missunderstood but this is my interpretation.
the way i am reading it between Chris and Gary they are not saying the same thing. the main difference is that Chris writes that ANY Media will produce Nitrates HOWEVER in order to produce aerobic ("oxygen loving") Bacteria you need air to come in contact with the surface of the media, CORRECT? so if that the case LIVE ROCK is submerged under water thus only housing Anaerobic "oxygen hating" bacteria so you cant have both if whatever media is under water, CORRECT? NO media actually produces bacteria it is only a favorable enviorment for them to grow, CORRECT? NOW NSW actually contains NITRATES tho the amounts vary depending upon location and conditions it is still always present, is it not? so having Nitrates in small quantities will assit in removing HARMFUL AMMONIA AND NITRITES so Nitrates are a benefit? why do people want to obtain 0 nitrates in their system? now keeping Bio-Balls free from dtritus is key because the break down of this material will hinder and cause adverse effect in the bateria that Bio-Balls are desisgned to house and also not cleaning them can cvause TOO MUCH aerobic ("oxygen loving") bacteria and nitrates will rise well above beneficial levels? Chris writes "Bio balls serve no purpose in a reef tank", Arent Nitrates a good thing in low amounts?
I hope i got this right? sorry if i missunderstood but this is my interpretation.
tperk9784
New member
I am going to try to answer each question/statement individually.
1. the way i am reading it between Chris and Gary they are not saying the same thing.
They are basically saying the same thing only one is being technical the other is not. they are both correct
2. the main difference is that Chris writes that ANY Media will produce Nitrates HOWEVER in order to produce aerobic ("oxygen loving") Bacteria you need air to come in contact with the surface of the media, CORRECT?
Not entirely, any surface in the tank whether it be glass, rock, sand, bioballs or poly filter material will host the bacteria that turn ammonia to Nitrite and Nitrite to nitrate. Aerobic means there is oxygen not specifically air.
3. so if that the case LIVE ROCK is submerged under water thus only housing Anaerobic "oxygen hating" bacteria so you cant have both if whatever media is under water, CORRECT?
Anaerobic bacteria live in oxygen deficient areas of the tank inside the live rock below the Aerobic layer or a DSB if it is deep enough. Bacteria that convert Nitrite to Nitrate are indeed Anaerobic.
4. NO media actually produces bacteria it is only a favorable enviorment for them to grow, CORRECT?
Correct Media are places for the bacteria to live on. Bioballs are specifically designed to have a large surface area to accommodate this.
5. NOW NSW actually contains NITRATES tho the amounts vary depending upon location and conditions it is still always present, is it not? so having Nitrates in small quantities will assit in removing HARMFUL AMMONIA AND NITRITES so Nitrates are a benefit?
Nitrates themselves do not remove anything. Nitrates are a step in the Nitrogen cycle. Ammonia --> Nitrite --> Nitrate ---> Nitrogen
6. why do people want to obtain 0 nitrates in their system?
Nitrates adversely effect corals and fish in certain ways. I do not know the specifics of this so I will let someone who knows answer that if they wish.
7. now keeping Bio-Balls free from dtritus is key because the breakdown of this material will hinder and cause adverse effect in the bateria that Bio-Balls are desisgned to house and also not cleaning them can cvause TOO MUCH aerobic ("oxygen loving") bacteria and nitrates will rise well above beneficial levels? Chris writes "Bio balls serve no purpose in a reef tank", Arent Nitrates a good thing in low amounts?
Here is where the overall nitrogen cycle and bio balls meet that is such a controversy.
Ammonia comes from the rotting of material in the tank. Food, fish poop, dead animals you name it. this decay releases ammonia. The bacteria that consume ammonia eat it and release Nitrite. Nitrite eating bacteria eat the Nitrite and release Nitrate. Bio balls do a great job on this part.
Detritus that could possibly be filtered out before it can decay will get stuck in the bio balls. If it was removed before it could decay it would release no ammonia. but because it got stuck in the bioballs it will decay and release ammonia into the system that would otherwise not be there. the end result is nitrates being released into the water column because Bio balls cannot convert Nitrate to Nitrogen.
I hope I answered your questions in well thought out answers I certainly tried.
1. the way i am reading it between Chris and Gary they are not saying the same thing.
They are basically saying the same thing only one is being technical the other is not. they are both correct
2. the main difference is that Chris writes that ANY Media will produce Nitrates HOWEVER in order to produce aerobic ("oxygen loving") Bacteria you need air to come in contact with the surface of the media, CORRECT?
Not entirely, any surface in the tank whether it be glass, rock, sand, bioballs or poly filter material will host the bacteria that turn ammonia to Nitrite and Nitrite to nitrate. Aerobic means there is oxygen not specifically air.
3. so if that the case LIVE ROCK is submerged under water thus only housing Anaerobic "oxygen hating" bacteria so you cant have both if whatever media is under water, CORRECT?
Anaerobic bacteria live in oxygen deficient areas of the tank inside the live rock below the Aerobic layer or a DSB if it is deep enough. Bacteria that convert Nitrite to Nitrate are indeed Anaerobic.
4. NO media actually produces bacteria it is only a favorable enviorment for them to grow, CORRECT?
Correct Media are places for the bacteria to live on. Bioballs are specifically designed to have a large surface area to accommodate this.
5. NOW NSW actually contains NITRATES tho the amounts vary depending upon location and conditions it is still always present, is it not? so having Nitrates in small quantities will assit in removing HARMFUL AMMONIA AND NITRITES so Nitrates are a benefit?
Nitrates themselves do not remove anything. Nitrates are a step in the Nitrogen cycle. Ammonia --> Nitrite --> Nitrate ---> Nitrogen
6. why do people want to obtain 0 nitrates in their system?
Nitrates adversely effect corals and fish in certain ways. I do not know the specifics of this so I will let someone who knows answer that if they wish.
7. now keeping Bio-Balls free from dtritus is key because the breakdown of this material will hinder and cause adverse effect in the bateria that Bio-Balls are desisgned to house and also not cleaning them can cvause TOO MUCH aerobic ("oxygen loving") bacteria and nitrates will rise well above beneficial levels? Chris writes "Bio balls serve no purpose in a reef tank", Arent Nitrates a good thing in low amounts?
Here is where the overall nitrogen cycle and bio balls meet that is such a controversy.
Ammonia comes from the rotting of material in the tank. Food, fish poop, dead animals you name it. this decay releases ammonia. The bacteria that consume ammonia eat it and release Nitrite. Nitrite eating bacteria eat the Nitrite and release Nitrate. Bio balls do a great job on this part.
Detritus that could possibly be filtered out before it can decay will get stuck in the bio balls. If it was removed before it could decay it would release no ammonia. but because it got stuck in the bioballs it will decay and release ammonia into the system that would otherwise not be there. the end result is nitrates being released into the water column because Bio balls cannot convert Nitrate to Nitrogen.
I hope I answered your questions in well thought out answers I certainly tried.
lpsluver
New member
The great debate...
Well said TPERK. To add one additional point...completely submerged bioballs (100% of the time) and completely submerged LR perform the same exact function in a sump, as far as the nitrogen cycle is concerned. There is no arguing this. The detritus argument is a different argument and a valid one. Also the use of a wet/dry trickle filter where all of the bioballs are completely out of the sump water is a concern.
This is my experience and my opinion.
Well said TPERK. To add one additional point...completely submerged bioballs (100% of the time) and completely submerged LR perform the same exact function in a sump, as far as the nitrogen cycle is concerned. There is no arguing this. The detritus argument is a different argument and a valid one. Also the use of a wet/dry trickle filter where all of the bioballs are completely out of the sump water is a concern.
This is my experience and my opinion.
The way that it has been explained to me in the past is that a completely submerged bioball is the same as rock or anything else in the mater that might be underwater in your tank.
But bioballs used in a wet-dry filter are the problem by creating an environment favoring Aerobic bacteria and creating an imbalance in the amount of nitrate produced.
The detritus build up I haven’t been too sure of since that will build up on any media u use weather its bioballs or liverock rubble which the universally accepted best option to use instead of live rock.
As far as detritus I don’t get overly concerned since I really don’t know if anyway you can eliminate it fully and I just see it as part of a reef.
But bioballs used in a wet-dry filter are the problem by creating an environment favoring Aerobic bacteria and creating an imbalance in the amount of nitrate produced.
The detritus build up I haven’t been too sure of since that will build up on any media u use weather its bioballs or liverock rubble which the universally accepted best option to use instead of live rock.
As far as detritus I don’t get overly concerned since I really don’t know if anyway you can eliminate it fully and I just see it as part of a reef.
Submerged Bioballs and LR Rubble are not the same thing and do not perform the same function. The LR rubble is porous, and therefore hosts within it anaerobic bacteria to continue the Nitrogen Cycle from Nitrate to Nitrogen gas. The commonality between Bioballs and LR Rubble is the outside surface area, which support aerobic nitrogen fixation in the form of Ammonia -> Nitrite -> Nitrate. That's why Bioballs are not suggested and LR and LR rubble is, because of that porosity that allows the nitrogen cycle to complete to N2 gas.
Bioballs in a wet-dry filter act as an engine with a turbo on it. The very high amount of oxygen in the area allows NO3 production to increase more than it would on the Bioballs versus being submerged, however in both cases, the bioballs will be very efficient nitrate fixers. That's why in a Nano tank with a closed back, that even when bioballs are submerged, they still are considered nitrate factories. The same reason that you don't want sponges in your tank. They are both nitrate fixing areas, and they both have a tendency to collect detritus and break it down very very rapidly, spiking nitrate.
I've got a lot of detritus in my tanks because they've got sandbeds and not a ton of flow, however I do not have a nitrate or algae problem because it does not break down fast enough or get converted fast enough to usable nutrients to create a nutrient problem in my tank.
You can't get rid of detritus. It's just part of the reef and is unavoidable. It does make great food for pods though, and if you were to externally raise pods in a separate tank, I've heard there is no better food than siphoned detritus from another tank
Please note, this is all experienced based as well as learned from the assimilation of gathered observation from ReefCentral as well as other sources. Take it for granted.
Bioballs in a wet-dry filter act as an engine with a turbo on it. The very high amount of oxygen in the area allows NO3 production to increase more than it would on the Bioballs versus being submerged, however in both cases, the bioballs will be very efficient nitrate fixers. That's why in a Nano tank with a closed back, that even when bioballs are submerged, they still are considered nitrate factories. The same reason that you don't want sponges in your tank. They are both nitrate fixing areas, and they both have a tendency to collect detritus and break it down very very rapidly, spiking nitrate.
I've got a lot of detritus in my tanks because they've got sandbeds and not a ton of flow, however I do not have a nitrate or algae problem because it does not break down fast enough or get converted fast enough to usable nutrients to create a nutrient problem in my tank.
You can't get rid of detritus. It's just part of the reef and is unavoidable. It does make great food for pods though, and if you were to externally raise pods in a separate tank, I've heard there is no better food than siphoned detritus from another tank
Please note, this is all experienced based as well as learned from the assimilation of gathered observation from ReefCentral as well as other sources. Take it for granted.
lpsluver
New member
Yeah I'm gonna do it
...Sorry but this is incorrect. The LR and LR rubble's porosity allows for a higher surface area to house the bacteria. It's the the lower oxygen environment under the surface of the water, as compared to the air above, that allows for the facultative anaerobic bacteria to efficiently do their job. Bioballs still have those same facultative anaerobes on them, when completely submerged in the water. Because they lack the porosity of the LR/LR rubble they may not be as effective at nitrate reduction. It is still the detritus that is the biggest factor in this argument. Like I mentioned in a previous thread. I have an active Bioball "experiment" going on, with 2-3 inches of them constantly submerged for for 8 months and have no nitrate problem to speak of. I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night and I am a degreed microbiologist.:lol:
Lol. Good call, fair enough. That's why I put the disclaimer at the end of my statement. I'm going to go see what else I can dig up to refute my argument but you're probably right in the end. I was speaking mostly from experience, which is mostly made up of trial and error and more or less inaccurate and skewed observations.
but you're probably right in the end. I was speaking mostly from experience, which is mostly made up of trial and error and more or less inaccurate and skewed observations.
Aquarist007
New member
I got rid of mine on the advice of literaly everyone on a local reef on line community:
Here is the replacement setup:
<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r107/reefescapetangster/IMG_4200.jpg" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a>
Adding the refugium will help with any aerating that the bioballs would have done---plus the trickle filter is now open to the surronding air.
<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r107/reefescapetangster/IMG_4196.jpg" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a>
Here is the replacement setup:
<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r107/reefescapetangster/IMG_4200.jpg" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a>
Adding the refugium will help with any aerating that the bioballs would have done---plus the trickle filter is now open to the surronding air.
<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r107/reefescapetangster/IMG_4196.jpg" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a>
LOL!! Yeah ive basically read what your saying on several articles here in RC as the main issue. Though th issue that just some detritus stuck in the bioballs can ultimatly make it the evil that everyone talks isnt something that i think can make such a difference.
The amount of detritus in some bioballs in my sump pales in comparision to the amount wedged between all my rock structures. Which by the same logic should make all my LR in my entire tank into detritus banks and nitrate factories.
gasman059
The OG mad scientist
NIce thread all over again!
NIce thread all over again!
First off How's your clam tank hopefully all is well.!
Now lets have some fun with this thread LMAO
Nitrates only get reduced by bacterial activity in anaerobic or anoxic conditions. Something that won't happen with the bioballs in the typical oxygenated set up.( like a well setup REEF)
Wet/dry bioballs are designed to convert ammonia and nitrites to nitrates- they rely on water changes to get rid of nitrates (unlike a reef aquarium employing liverock or a DSB).
So if u want to reduce nitrates then:
Remove existing filters designed to facilitate the nitrogen cycle. Such filters do a fine job of processing ammonia to nitrite to nitrate, but do nothing with the nitrate. So slowly removing them and allowing more of the nitrogen processing to take place on and in the live rock and sand can be beneficial.
U can also do the typical less food and so forth.
So yes they have absolotely no use in a reef except for sound. And yes I have detritus but does that mean I'm going to knowingly leave another source of badness in my tank just because-nopenope nope!
Let the argument begin!
NIce thread all over again!
I thought the bioball theory was all but done(wet/dry vs fuge)
First off How's your clam tank hopefully all is well.!
Now lets have some fun with this thread LMAO
Nitrates only get reduced by bacterial activity in anaerobic or anoxic conditions. Something that won't happen with the bioballs in the typical oxygenated set up.( like a well setup REEF)
Wet/dry bioballs are designed to convert ammonia and nitrites to nitrates- they rely on water changes to get rid of nitrates (unlike a reef aquarium employing liverock or a DSB).
So if u want to reduce nitrates then:
Remove existing filters designed to facilitate the nitrogen cycle. Such filters do a fine job of processing ammonia to nitrite to nitrate, but do nothing with the nitrate. So slowly removing them and allowing more of the nitrogen processing to take place on and in the live rock and sand can be beneficial.
U can also do the typical less food and so forth.
So yes they have absolotely no use in a reef except for sound. And yes I have detritus but does that mean I'm going to knowingly leave another source of badness in my tank just because-nopenope nope!
Let the argument begin!
tperk9784
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10120689#post10120689 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lpsluver
Yeah I'm gonna do it
I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night and I am a degreed microbiologist.:lol:
I was not aware that merely being submerged in water was enough to facilitate an environment capable of supporting anaerobic bacteria. If this is true then any submerged surface is capable of supporting anaerobic bacteria?
I was under the impression that the surface of LR was aerobic in nature because water is aerobic. The effect of the aerobic bacteria on the surface using up the oxygen facilitated the movement of the Nitrate by proximity to the oxygen deficient bacteria below. (I hope that made sense, it did in my head.)
This is why I though in a coil de-nitrator you have to have a long coil of the small tubing to allow the bacteria to use up all the Oxygen in the water before it can get to the point where it can support anaerobic bacteria.
This thread is turning out very good. I am learning a lot.
gasman059
The OG mad scientist
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10120997#post10120997 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReefWreak
It sounds like i'm not the only one under certain impressions. Maybe I'm a skewed reader, however it sounds like Gasman and Tperk have similar arguments to mine. It's a good thing we've got a genuine scientist on the case
LMAO-there's really no reason to be a scientists to understand this process,simple and clear.
reefkeeping a while back had an article by DR.Holmes that clarifies this issue.
lpsluver
New member
Remember what I wrote. I said they were facultative anaerobes. This means that they prefer low oxygen enviroments but can "survive" in air or in the total absence of oxygen. I think the latter only truly exists in areas that are designed to be that way and possibly at the bottom of DSB's. Although I have not studied "true" anaerobes I do not believe that they would be very productive in marine tanks.
Kinda makes sense but unless I am mistaken the same organisms are doing all of the work. They are, in effect, turning on a different metabolic pathway, in response to the conditions, to continue the reactions.
I am not sure what the therory behind a coil denitrator is. Perhaps someone else can fill in this blank.
Gasman...The tank clam tank is doing well. Got 150wHQI on it now and only need a Possum Wrasse to finish it (and maybe another clam or 2). Thanks for chiming in on this Thread. I knew I could count on you. :lol:
gasman059
The OG mad scientist
LMAO! YUP ALWAYS FUN THREADS WHEN THERE"S DIFF OPINIONS THEY ARE ALSO VERY INSTRUCTIONAL!
BTW Ricky is getting some nice wrasses from Hawai give them a call tomorow to see if they got some possum's.
Good show with the clam tank-I'm considering setting up a clam pipefish tank .If i could only find time and space.
As far as the denitrator in theory is quite simple- run water very slowly through a long, thin tube. Aerobic bacteria at the source end do their normal nitrate thing, using up the oxygen in the water in the process.
Anaerobic bacteria can then flourish in the rest of the length of the tube, reducing nitrates to N2 gas.
I have no experience with it and I truly think is another gimmick!
LOL opinions vary!
BTW Ricky is getting some nice wrasses from Hawai give them a call tomorow to see if they got some possum's.
Good show with the clam tank-I'm considering setting up a clam pipefish tank .If i could only find time and space.
As far as the denitrator in theory is quite simple- run water very slowly through a long, thin tube. Aerobic bacteria at the source end do their normal nitrate thing, using up the oxygen in the water in the process.
Anaerobic bacteria can then flourish in the rest of the length of the tube, reducing nitrates to N2 gas.
I have no experience with it and I truly think is another gimmick!
LOL opinions vary!
The sulfur is supposed to strip the water of oxygen and in that anerobic area, there is more efficient nitrate to nitrogen gas fixation. People have used sulfur media more recently, but for a very long there there were other generators that you had to feed with a carbon source to keep the bacteria alive, and there were other types as well. And not all sulfur denitrators use long tubes. The Korallin (SP?) one is set up like a calcium reactor and can actually be converted later on as well. The Midwest is also not coiled. There are a few people in the club with them, and I've spoken to one of them in person about it at length, and he's had nothing but luck with it. I also believe however that as long as you aren't overfeeding, your nitrates go away with time and maintenance. Some people prefer to feed more heavily though, not perform maintenance, or just don't want to remove/replace their sandbeds. There are a lot of natural ways to get rid of nitrate, but they aren't for everybody. It took me a lot of discipline and algal frustration to learn and accept that fish don't need to eat half their body weight daily (most fish at least).
(most fish at least).
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
Chris- I'm sorry. I didn't mean to single out your post but rather the train wreck that's happening.
it's the lower oxygen environment inside the liverock (or DSB) that provides the massive surface area for anaerobic bacteria to do their job. Bioballs were originally designed to maximize the interface between air and water for aerobic bacteria to do their job. Bioballs were originally intended to perform their job above the water- not submerged in water.
Since bioballs have no massive interior surface areas devoid of oxygen they cannot possible process nitrates as efficiently as good quality live rock or a properly functioning DSB.
What I've posted is basically reiterating what gasman059 already posted:
it's the lower oxygen environment inside the liverock (or DSB) that provides the massive surface area for anaerobic bacteria to do their job. Bioballs were originally designed to maximize the interface between air and water for aerobic bacteria to do their job. Bioballs were originally intended to perform their job above the water- not submerged in water.
Since bioballs have no massive interior surface areas devoid of oxygen they cannot possible process nitrates as efficiently as good quality live rock or a properly functioning DSB.
What I've posted is basically reiterating what gasman059 already posted:
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