Are Bio Balls really THAT bad?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=#post target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lpsluver
Ricky at AquariumMart? BTW I've 2 Bluestripe pipefish in my clam tank and they paired up (and are cute as hell together) and are eating pods and cyclopeeze (I think). They ate Mysis at Reef's Edge but the mysis was smaller than what I have. I'll have to work on that.
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Congrats on those-I had a pair but they did not make -lasted about 2.5 months(starved I guess) way too much competition in my reef.
Yes Ricky at aquariumart give them a call.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10123727#post10123727 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gary Majchrzak
Chris- I'm sorry. I didn't mean to single out your post but rather the train wreck that's happening.

it's the lower oxygen environment inside the liverock (or DSB) that provides the massive surface area for anaerobic bacteria to do their job. Bioballs were originally designed to maximize the interface between air and water for aerobic bacteria to do their job. Bioballs were originally intended to perform their job above the water- not submerged in water.
Since bioballs have no massive interior surface areas devoid of oxygen they cannot possible process nitrates as efficiently as good quality live rock or a properly functioning DSB.

What I've posted is basically reiterating what gasman059 already posted:
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When I was told to take out the bioballs from my trickle filter at the 5 month point in my tank setup I worried that my live rock in the tank was not mature(cycled) enough to make up for the loss of biological filtration provided by the bioballs.
I took them out all at once, added some live rock(I had from another tank) ,removed all the foam filters and added a micron bag. There was no increase in ammonia or nitrates as experts adviced me would be the case.
I guess this supplies more to the arguement that the bioballs perform little practical biological filtration and for the little bit of nitrate collection that they do, they are not worth keeping.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10141769#post10141769 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
When I was told to take out the bioballs from my trickle filter at the 5 month point in my tank setup I worried that my live rock in the tank was not mature(cycled) enough to make up for the loss of biological filtration provided by the bioballs.
I took them out all at once, added some live rock(I had from another tank) ,removed all the foam filters and added a micron bag. There was no increase in ammonia or nitrates as experts adviced me would be the case.
I guess this supplies more to the arguement that the bioballs perform little practical biological filtration and for the little bit of nitrate collection that they do, they are not worth keeping.
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I've never before heard it stated that bioballs "collect" nitrates and I wonder what kind of "expert" would tell you that removing bioballs and replacing them with liverock would result in an increase in ammonia or nitrates. If that's what you were told, I'm sure these "experts" meant there might be a temporary spike in ammonia, nitrites and/or nitrates in your aquarium -and perhaps it was so quick that you missed it. The usual recommendation is to slowly remove bioballs partially over several weeks- not all at once.
There's no doubt that bioballs do perform biological filtration. The main problem encountered when using them is the fact that they're too efficient at what they do (reduce ammonia) and they aren't intended to deal with the resulting nitrates.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10143185#post10143185 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gary Majchrzak
I've never before heard it stated that bioballs "collect" nitrates and I wonder what kind of "expert" would tell you that removing bioballs and replacing them with liverock would result in an increase in ammonia or nitrates. If that's what you were told, I'm sure these "experts" meant there might be a temporary spike in ammonia, nitrites and/or nitrates in your aquarium -and perhaps it was so quick that you missed it. The usual recommendation is to slowly remove bioballs partially over several weeks- not all at once.
There's no doubt that bioballs do perform biological filtration. The main problem encountered when using them is the fact that they're too efficient at what they do (reduce ammonia) and they aren't intended to deal with the resulting nitrates.
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I appreciate your detailed answer because I joined this site to get a broader perspective from my home town site which is much more limited in scope as this one is.

Yes, I meant that I might get a temporary spike due to the combined bioballs live rock setup in my tank. If I removed the bioballs then the live rock take over their function,--due to 5 mo maturity of the tank there was concern whether the live rock had cycled enough to take the combined load on itself.
I think this is why we are advised to take the bioballs out slowly at weekly intervals etc.
However in my case the trickle filter was in a very hard place to get at(later removed entirely and put into the basement) so some of the experience guys on our local web site advised me to take them out all at once rather then take the chances of releasing nitrates all ready accumulated on the bioballs.
Live rock was added to the sump simply to increase the overall biological capacity of the system--now 110gal plus 30g sump +30 gal fuge.
I chose to add it to the sump rather then the tank because I wanted to keep more realestate open to the tangs I have.
 
I have been watching people with freshwater aquariums totally break down the tank clean the gravel scrub the tank (all against my recommendations).

In other words decimating the majority of their biological filtration, but they don't mess with the HOB or canister filter and most of the time they have no problems unless they were severely overstocked int he 1st place.

In a 5 month old established tank IMO the rock and sand of the main display would be more than sufficient biological filtration. thats most likely the reason you saw no detectable spike in ammonia or nitrites when you removed all your bio balls.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10148138#post10148138 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tperk9784
I have been watching people with freshwater aquariums totally break down the tank clean the gravel scrub the tank (all against my recommendations).

In other words decimating the majority of their biological filtration, but they don't mess with the HOB or canister filter and most of the time they have no problems unless they were severely overstocked int he 1st place.

In a 5 month old established tank IMO the rock and sand of the main display would be more than sufficient biological filtration. thats most likely the reason you saw no detectable spike in ammonia or nitrites when you removed all your bio balls.
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this was the consensus of our local forum and this is why I took out all the bioballs.

I am really curious here----what evolved first in this hobby--the concept that live rock/sand was all the biological filtration you needed or the use of trickle filters/bioballs, other combinations of mechanical/biological filtration methods?
 
First, the UG (undergravel) filter gave way to the wet/dry (bioball) filter.
Liverock for biological filtration gained wide acceptance in the 80's and the widespread use of DSB's/plenums followed shortly thereafter. Employing live rock for biological filtration, protein skimming and using strong lighting was originally referred to as the 'Berlin method' of running a reef aquarium. You hardly hear the term used nowadays.
 
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doesn't it seem to be going full circle then with renewed reliance on substrate, live rock to due the bulk of biological filtration(not including a protein skimmer)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10151320#post10151320 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
doesn't it seem to be going full circle then with renewed reliance on substrate, live rock to due the bulk of biological filtration(not including a protein skimmer)
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No, IMO.
UG's and wet/drys don't process nitrates like LR, DSB's and plenums do.

Undergravel filters and wet/drys rely on bacteria found on their surfaces to process water being passed by/through them (ever see how a UG filter works?) while LR uses a different type of bacteria inside the rock to more fully process the water surrounding it.

I see where your confusion is coming from and I can understand how one might perceive it as "full circle" simply because some type of material is used to harbor bacteria. (Remember how efficient sponge filters are!)
 
by full circle I meant from reliance on live rock ------other filtration methods(wet/dry, bioballs)----back to live rock again as the best biological method.
 
So to sum it up...

I should take out my bioballs in my Bio Cube 29 gal and replace with a good protein skimmer. That, with the LR and DSB should do be sufficient filtration?

Also - how deep is considered a DSB as compared to a "normal" sand bed? Can I add more live sand w/o messing up the system?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10164697#post10164697 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
by full circle I meant from reliance on live rock ------other filtration methods(wet/dry, bioballs)----back to live rock again as the best biological method.
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live rock wasn't employed for biological filtration prior to the use of UG and wet/dry filters.

bocareefguy- a DSB is 4" or greater in depth.
 
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