Are Deep Sand Beds, DSBs, dangerous to use in a marine aquarium?

[acesq]

Yes it is (I actually speak on the history of the hobby)
But it was Robert Straughn in the 1950s who advocated live rock, but he didn't understand the bacterial facet of it and considered the aiptasia anemones on the rock to somehow add healthful benefits to aquarium water. (I still have his book)
He didn't call it live rock, "but anemone rock"
Unfortunately in the early 70s we tried to keep aiptasia in our tanks but could not. I used to buy aiptasia and try to get them to live in my tank, but from all the copper I had to use, the things would not live. All fish had ich, there were no reef tanks and what we had were not very healthy so coper had to stay continousely in the water. There was no liquid copper so we used pennies, 20 to the gallon and when the fish would lie on the bottom, we knew to remove some pennies, about five cents.
So that is also a little history. :smokin:

Paul:

I'm an old timer like you -- set up my first salt tank (a 55gal with undergravel filter) - in 1973. However, I never used the penny method, very rarely used copper, but never had an ich problem. I even managed to breed neon gobies. So copper use was not ubiquitous back in the day.

 

[Dissy]

I've always had sand in every aquarium I've ever had.. I really want to try BB, but since I can't get beyond the "it has to have sand" mentality, I painted the bottom of the tank I'm setting up now with the Krylon Make It Stone, which has the same colors as the sand in my other tank. Hopefully there won't be any light glare when I fill it..

I figure I'll try it, and if I really don't like it, I can always dump Fiji Pink in the tank.

What I don't know is if my little 1" bed offers anything in the way of biological advantages...(my snails like it)..

 

[jda]

The bottom will cover in coralline if you don't scrape it.

Any amount of aragonite will bond to phosphates and allow for de-nitrification.

 

[LouH]

Great observations Lou. When I build a larger system I am thinking of running a remote DSB to continue the benefits of the DSB with less risk. Sometimes it's hard to keep track of large pieces of decaying organics that fall into the DSB and get buried.

Did your remote DSB collect a layer of fine sediment on top (or the brown calcified detritus that typically lines sumps)?

For lack of a better term, the live rock on light diffuser suspended over my Brute DSB get "dusty" over time. About every six months I pull the rock out and rinse off the "dust" with salt water. At that time I'll also siphon out about 1/4" off the top of the DSB and rinse it off in a bucket. It leaves fairly clean water, so I believe that the "dust" is precipitated CaCO3.

BTW, the Brute garbage can DSB is an unlit vessel. My refugium also has a DSB, and the surface layer in that vessel will fuse solid if not periodically vacuumed. That vessel receives artificial light for a mangrove.

This topic is extremely frustrating. In my case my BB display is healthier than ever. However, a buddy of mine with a DSB in his display has the best looking reef tank I've ever seen in person, and he never touches the sand (the system is well over 5 years old). He has snails and an 8" wrasse that disturb the top layer. This guy's tank is something like 4' X 4' X 5', and it literally looks like a chunk was cut out of a reef and placed in his tank. He has huge coral colonies that have stunning color. Despite the improved growth and color in my own tank since going BB, it is a joke compared to his tank.

BTW, I just purchased a Hanna phosphate checker, low range, and I've tried twice to measure phosphate, and I got 0 ppm each time. I doubt those results, although my system will not grow chaeto of any significant quantity. It will grow out individual strands to the size of a small apple over the course of several months. However, if not harvested, the whole cluster will die off and fuel a bubble algae outbreak in the display. This happened to me about a month ago.

FWIW, bubble algae is about the easiest algae to manually remove from a system. I had a pretty significant outbreak, and I was able to remove about 95% of it from my display in about 30 minutes. Very little has grown back since. It seems to be a good nutrient export algae. I'm sure people will think I'm crazy, but it really isn't all that bad to deal with IME.

Lou

 

[Brianmil7516]

The only reason to use a DSB is if you are going to use the FULL Jaubert/Plenum filter. A DSB by itself does nothing. The "Live Sand" filter relies on several things.
1) You need the static void(plenum) to realize the full benefits of this system. The anaerobic plenum space is what is colonized with bacteria that complete the full nitrogen cycle.
2) You need sand stirrers to consume detritus and consume uneaten food to prevent Hydrogen Sulfide pockets from forming and/or to release toxic gases in small quantities BEFORE they reach dangerous levels.

The water in the plenum, with a screening material over it to prevent substrate material from entering the plenum space acutally was HYPOXIC in nature, because due to temp variances there was SOME flow and oxygen exchange so there was some dissolved oxygen in the substrate. Without this structure, people are creating ANOXIC EVENTS in their tanks.

 

[billsreef]

Having run multiple tanks with full Jaubert style plenums and straight DSB's without plenums, I've found it really doesn't make a difference...other than the effort put into setting up the plenum. As for critters that stir up and process the stuff in the sand, I'm in full agreement that they are needed for any style of deep sand bed set up.

 

[jda]

I can assure you that you can have a stable, long term tank with no nitrate or phosphate issues without a plenum and just sand. I will let the smarter people figure out the how and why.

Even the sand stirrers and detritus eaters will poop as well. You still have to get that out every once in a while or, one day, all that they will stir around is the poo.

 

[Brianmil7516]

I can assure you that you can have a stable, long term tank with no nitrate or phosphate issues without a plenum and just sand. I will let the smarter people figure out the how and why.

Even the sand stirrers and detritus eaters will poop as well. You still have to get that out every once in a while or, one day, all that they will stir around is the poo.

True, but i wonder how many of the DSBs gone bad situations are caused by correct information being applied incorrectly. You do have to maintain the sand bed but it should be done incrementally, with only small sections of the substrate being disturbed at any given time. Some people new to the hobby may figure this stuff is bad i HAVE to get ALL of it out of the tank in one shot. Maybe they should google "anoxic event" first....

 

[gregrocks79]

Great topic!!! I have a DSB in my display and I just added a few inches to the fuge (which was BB) for me, having the DSB only increases the kinds of critters that will help the entirety of the system itself. I have sand sifters in the display and also going to add some to the fuge.

The more beneficial bacteria the better, right?!

 

[Nammy]

For high % of the people, simple DSB will be just fine because that % of people will not have the same tank setup for more than 5 years!

 

[billsreef]

For high % of the people, simple DSB will be just fine because that % of people will not have the same tank setup for more than 5 years!

My last "simple" DSB was set up for nearly 20 years before I moved to FL

 

[jda]

True, but i wonder how many of the DSBs gone bad situations are caused by correct information being applied incorrectly. You do have to maintain the sand bed but it should be done incrementally, with only small sections of the substrate being disturbed at any given time. Some people new to the hobby may figure this stuff is bad i HAVE to get ALL of it out of the tank in one shot. Maybe they should google "anoxic event" first....

Incorrect applications? Such is the hobby, right?

I think that is phenomenon is increasing with what I call the "biocube generation" of internet posters who oversurf, overtinker and under experience.

Here is a few just dealing with sandbeds, but different from cleaning:

The most recent example of this are people who are using biopellets and vinegar on brand new tanks and never allowing their tank to fully cycle and the sandbed to get established... and they wonder why they have N and P issues down the road. The are starving the bacteria in the sandbed that never establish, yet the crud still ends up down there with nothing to consume it. Yes, somebody, somewhere had a problem with nitrate and phosphate that biopellets helped... but that is not THEIR problem in a new tank. ...correct info applied incorrectly.

Another example - silica sand users who think that silica is just as good as aragonite because it does not leech silica in to the water. True - silica sand does not leech silica into the water, but it also does not bond phosphate. ....correct info applied incorrectly.

The worst example of this is when people quote a really good study or article but only pay attention to 1/10th of it and miss the whole meaning or the context that makes it applicable.

As far as sand goes, I tell people that they need to keep it clean, but not too fast at once. Slowing replacing or vacuuming over several years has been good enough for me.

 

[Nammy]

My last "simple" DSB was set up for nearly 20 years before I moved to FL

So you fit in the Low %. Like me, now that I'm in one place for good, I'll finally have a tank longer than 4 years
Oh btw, I didn't mentioned that in that high %, allot of them don't stay long in the hobby.

 

[billsreef]

The biggest problem I see with DSB's of any ilk, or any other filtration systems, is that often people try and equate "low" maintenance to "No" maintenance. Naturally the no maintenance routine fails, but they always blame the particular method without admitting to or even realizing they simply did it wrong by being too lazy

 

[Don Quixote]

The biggest problem I see with DSB's of any ilk, or any other filtration systems, is that often people try and equate "low" maintenance to "No" maintenance. Naturally the no maintenance routine fails, but they always blame the particular method without admitting to or even realizing they simply did it wrong by being too lazy

This is one of the major pitfalls of this hobby, specifically when it comes to sharing information about the various methods employed. As far as the DSB is concerned, one could use seagrass as a sandstirrer/nutrient stabilizer. Any old macro algae would do as insurance, faster growing is preferred, seagrass being optimum.

 

[elegance coral]

The biggest problem I see with DSB's of any ilk, or any other filtration systems, is that often people try and equate "low" maintenance to "No" maintenance. Naturally the no maintenance routine fails, but they always blame the particular method without admitting to or even realizing they simply did it wrong by being too lazy

Don't "the rules" of a DSB, at least according to Shemik, forbid the hobbyist to disturb the sand bed, or do anything to it? Isn't that a no maintenance filter system?

At one point, Shemik did suggest restocking the critters in the sand. After several people, including myself, pointed out the flaws in this approach, he changed his stand on the subject. Now there's no maintenance for the hobbyist to do.

So, according to "the rules" the hobbyist is to do nothing to the sand. When it starts killing the animals in the tank, how can it be the hobbyists fault for being to lazy, and not the fault of the method itself, when the hobbyists were simply fallowing directions?

 

[billsreef]

Don't "the rules" of a DSB, at least according to Shemik, forbid the hobbyist to disturb the sand bed, or do anything to it? Isn't that a no maintenance filter system?

At one point, Shemik did suggest restocking the critters in the sand. After several people, including myself, pointed out the flaws in this approach, he changed his stand on the subject. Now there's no maintenance for the hobbyist to do.

So, according to "the rules" the hobbyist is to do nothing to the sand. When it starts killing the animals in the tank, how can it be the hobbyists fault for being to lazy, and not the fault of the method itself, when the hobbyists were simply fallowing directions?

Did you ever see pictures of his tank or see him talking about "old tank syndrome"? Some sources aren't always the best, even when proclaiming to make the "rules"

 

[jda]

I didn't know that there were rules. When did we get these? Dang, I am out of this hobby... so much for thinking for myself, doing research, taking nothing at face value, getting experience and sticking it to the man. ...wait, did I just describe life or the hobby?

 

[elegance coral]

Did you ever see pictures of his tank

The only pic's I've seen are the ones of his sand bed, on his website. They are disgusting!

or see him talking about "old tank syndrome"?

I haven't had the pleasure of listening to him speak, but I'm sure I'd enjoy the question and answer portion of such a lecture.

Some sources aren't always the best, even when proclaiming to make the "rules"

I hope you know I totally agree with you on that. I just don't blame the hobbyist for fallowing the guidance from such sources. The man has a PhD, he's written numerous articles on the subject, he's given lectures across the country on the subject, and he literally wrote the book on the subject. It's sad, but understandable, for people to put their faith in such a person.


http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=15135699#post15135699

I remember reading the first post, in the above thread, back in 2007. My hart sank when I read the list of authors he thanked for their guidance. I knew then, the carnage that was to come. I didn't post in the thread because anything I would have said, would have been viewed as blasphemy.

A few months ago, I scanned through the thread. What I found was video of a trigger fish in the last death rolls of its life. A trigger fish!!!! How bad do the conditions within a tank have to get to kill a trigger fish?????:sad2: I saw photos of what was once a bunch of large, beautiful, clams. Now their nothing more than empty shells. Large clams are very hardy animals. Again, the conditions have to get pretty bad to kill these animals.

This man did his research. He spent thousands, upon thousands of dollars trying to create a beautiful reef tank. What he got was a large glass box full of dead animals. I don't blame him for this. IMHO, the blame lies solely on the shoulders of some of those authors he thanked in the first post. It is the misinformation he received from the likes of Shemik, Borenman, and Calfo that led to the demise of his pets. I'm sure the man worked hard and did everything he could with the information he had.

He was told to pile up massive amounts of sand on the bottom of his tank and allow rot and decay to accumulate unchecked. Okay, maybe not quite in those words.:lol: But the end result is the same.

If we're not talking about a no maintenance filter system as described by these "experts", what are we talking about? What is the definition of a DSB, and how are we to maintain it? The "experts" say to do nothing.

Peace
EC

 

[jda]

You really have me thinking about who to trust and when.

Sand never made sense to me since you cannot just add, add, add and add without some removal. However, the bigger question still looms... the only thing that I can come up with is to look for long-time reefers that are doing what you are doing, or want to do. Unfortunately, most of these people quit posting after they get stuff figured out and they are tired of arguing with the frontrunners and band wagoners.

I still need to think about this more... this was a good question.