Are grounding probes necessary?
- Thread starter mskvarenina
- Start date
So do we have a verdict on this? I think their may always be debate on this but the fact is proper setup trumps all. If you want to add a grounding probe on top of proper setup, then is it really going to hurt you? probably not. In a hobby where we spend and spend, this is a small item that can be left out of the budget if you are already taking other precautions.
The only thing I could see a probe being an issue is in the case with a fault could cause a GFI to not trip. There is an example of that in the article. I need to think about this.
I think the key point, is get the electrical out of the water if possible.
The only thing I could see a probe being an issue is in the case with a fault could cause a GFI to not trip.
How could that happen? I don't believe I can think of a possible way, even if someone claims it (thought I didn't see that specific passage).
FWIW, I've gotten shock off a GFCI. All that takes is for the current to go out the hot side of the GFCI outlet and in the neutral of the same outlet, with no leak to ground. A GFCI will not trip under those circumstances.
How could that happen? I don't believe I can think of a possible way, even if someone claims it (thought I didn't see that specific passage).
FWIW, I've gotten shock off a GFCI. All that takes is for the current to go out the hot side of the GFCI outlet and in the neutral of the same outlet, with no leak to ground. A GFCI will not trip under those circumstances.
Paul B
Premium Member
If you don't want to plug that into an outlet, you can just put that loop around a ground like a pipe or the center screw of an outlet. That plug is just a fake plug, the only thing used is the ground prong which is connected to that loop.
That is true. Of course if you had a ground probe in your tank, that would not happen which is one of the reasons to use a probe. But what do I know? I was only a master electrician for 40 years. :uhoh2:
That is true. Of course if you had a ground probe in your tank, that would not happen which is one of the reasons to use a probe. But what do I know? I was only a master electrician for 40 years. :uhoh2:
That is true. Of course if you had a ground probe in your tank, that would not happen which is one of the reasons to use a probe. But what do I know? I was only a master electrician for 40 years.
I did have a ground probe in the tank, just not on the plug that I was touching with wet, salty hands.
I did have a ground probe in the tank, just not on the plug that I was touching with wet, salty hands.
Thats like saying I was in a car accident once, but I didn't get hurt because the accident happened in a different car in another state from where I was.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Randy, I posted an article up a few that goes through an electrical case where the GFI will/may not trip. You have to jump from the original article to the subarticle, I think it was the embedded link on GFI. As stated from the original post, the only bad thing about a probe is it could mask issues potentially. I have a probe and GFI myself. Just thinkin' here...
Paul B, master electrician, if you get a minute check out that specific case that guy talks about in the article. Make sure you jump to the subariticle. He calls out a very specific situation in where the probe could result in an issue. I am curious to hear your take....
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The sub link I followed did not (as I understand it) describe a situation where a ground probe prevented a GFCI from tripping in a situation where it normally would without the ground probe. It simply hypothesized a situation where the GFCI might not trip. It also wouldn't trip in that scenario (as I understand it) without a ground probe. The article said that too. I would never claim a GFCI solves every possible scenario. The article clearly explains that and I don't disagree with it. 
A GFCI works by comparing the current out the hot wire and back through the neutral. If those are not close enough, the GFCI trips. No matter what someone claims, having some extra current go to ground somewhere else via the ground probe is not going to negatively impact that "analysis" by the GFCI outlet, and could only make it more likely to trip (or no difference).
A GFCI works by comparing the current out the hot wire and back through the neutral. If those are not close enough, the GFCI trips. No matter what someone claims, having some extra current go to ground somewhere else via the ground probe is not going to negatively impact that "analysis" by the GFCI outlet, and could only make it more likely to trip (or no difference).
Can someone tell me what this loop does? I bought the Rid-Volt Titanium Probe. It didn't have instructions on what to do with this loop thing.
My first impulse was to tell you what to do with the loop! :rollface: It is a restraint that you can use to attach the probe plug to the screw that holds the cover plate on the wall outlet to prevent the plug from being removed from the outlet. You don't need to use it, but it would prevent someone from unplugging the probe.
Despairodyne
New member
A GFCI works by comparing the current out the hot wire and back through the neutral. If those are not close enough, the GFCI trips. No matter what someone claims, having some extra current go to ground somewhere else via the ground probe is not going to negatively impact that "analysis" by the GFCI outlet, and could only make it more likely to trip (or no difference).
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Exactly. A path to ground should be the whole point of a grounding probe. If a hot conductor comes in contact with a grounding probe via conductive saltwater, hot/neutral balance is lost and the GFI trips.
The point of contact can be intermittent so changing the position of a device can open the path by flexing wire insulation or close it by the same mechanism. Which is why you can get a zap when you take a heater out of the tank even though it didn't trip anything while in the tank. The GFCI will keep it from being more than a little buzz.
1. Use GFCI circuits exclusively.
2. Use grounding probes. It will trip the outlet the problem device is plugged into if there is any current leaking from it. You can trouble shoot things from there.
3. Shorts can be intermittent so this crap can drive you crazy.
4. Having a GFCI pop disabling a device is pretty much the same as having the attached device fail. So whatever redundancy you have in place for a failed device should be the same.
5. Electricity, like Columbian women, can be tricky, dangerous, and tremendously awesome. You never know when an unforeseen context will make all of your safety
precautions moot. Mitigation is the key.
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Exactly. A path to ground should be the whole point of a grounding probe. If a hot conductor comes in contact with a grounding probe via conductive saltwater, hot/neutral balance is lost and the GFI trips.
The point of contact can be intermittent so changing the position of a device can open the path by flexing wire insulation or close it by the same mechanism. Which is why you can get a zap when you take a heater out of the tank even though it didn't trip anything while in the tank. The GFCI will keep it from being more than a little buzz.
1. Use GFCI circuits exclusively.
2. Use grounding probes. It will trip the outlet the problem device is plugged into if there is any current leaking from it. You can trouble shoot things from there.
3. Shorts can be intermittent so this crap can drive you crazy.
4. Having a GFCI pop disabling a device is pretty much the same as having the attached device fail. So whatever redundancy you have in place for a failed device should be the same.
5. Electricity, like Columbian women, can be tricky, dangerous, and tremendously awesome. You never know when an unforeseen context will make all of your safety
precautions moot. Mitigation is the key.
Ok, so I am keeping my probe on top of my GFI.
The main point IMO that the discussion mentioned.... keep as much, if not all, electrical out of the tank if possible. That just makes too much sense. Aside from the benefits of the core discussion, think about no heat, and no pumps to pull and clean! Just need to put a strainer on the hose.
The main point IMO that the discussion mentioned.... keep as much, if not all, electrical out of the tank if possible. That just makes too much sense. Aside from the benefits of the core discussion, think about no heat, and no pumps to pull and clean! Just need to put a strainer on the hose.
Any grounding is fine and equally effective (unless it gets unplugged ).
).
Paul B
Premium Member
That's from that article and like much of that link, I disagree with it. This statement makes no sense. I don't know what he means by a pump shorting with in itself and the current flow would be local with in the pump. The pump would melt, the current would go through the water to the ground probe and even without a ground probe, the breaker will trip. No matter how the current enters the water (besides induced electricity which means almost nothing) the breaker will trip. But if say your heater cracks and 120 volts is going through your water, and you have no ground probe, many times nothing will happen until you stick your hand in there. Then something definitely will happen but you may not know about it because all your screaming will distract you.
A few weeks ago I was mixing water and my heater cracked in the tub. My lights went out so I was lucky the breaker tripped and I knew not to put my hand in there. As a commercial construction electrician in Manhattan I have gotten shocked many times, even thrown off a couple of ladders by 277 or 480 volts which is what all lighting in new offices run on. I use a ground probe on everything. If my fish complain that there is stray electricity in the water,I really don't care as I really don't care if they die a horrible death. Better them than me. Oh and I have plenty of stray voltage in my tank. 60 volts the last time I checked and my fish, including the 23 year olds don't seem to care, they don't have HLLE, diphtheria, sclerosis of the liver or the heartbreak of psoriasis. This is the reason I try very hard to keep away from ground probe and GFCI threads. If you don't want to use either, go for it.
Have a great day while you can. :bum:
my heater cracked in the tub.
You use aquarium heaters to warm your bath water?
You use aquarium heaters to warm your bath water?
I've always looked at it this way... (which makes me think of 'Young Frankenstein' with the "... walk this way" scene.)
1. You *need* a GFCI outlet on everything in your tank that can put electricity in the water, regardless of grounding probe or not. The GFCI protects *you*.
2. If you believe stray voltage is detrimental to the health of your tank's inhabitants, then a ground probe will take away that stray voltage. But if it is *not* plugged into a GFCI outlet, you will have no idea something is "leaking" voltage. When things "leak" voltage, it is just a matter of time before electrolysis causes it to leak nastier things that will for sure be detrimental to the health of your tank.
3. If you use a ground probe in a GFCI outlet, it may trip the GFCI outlet leaving you without power. Plan accordingly. It will trip at the worst opportunity.
4. If you don't use a ground probe, but use a GFCI outlet, if a device "leaks" voltage, you won't necessarily feel it or trip your GFCI if you just stick your hands in the water. You have to stick your hand in the water AND ground yourself. That's harder to do than it sounds. But if you do, your GFCI will trip if it's operating correctly. You'll get a buzz, but it won't be lights out for you.
To me, and I'm probably wrong somewhere there, those seem like the "for sure" things you can say. So it all gets down to whether or not you think stray voltage is a health problem for fish, and how you want to deal with when (not if) something shorts out in your tank. I've been lit up by a shorting powerhead in my tank. I had my hands in the tank for a while dealing with some algea when my arm touched a screw on my light fixture that ended up grounding me. My GFCI tripped. My arm was tingly. But the GFCI did what it was supposed to do.
One thing that is often overlooked in discussions about GFCIs... if you have some of your equipment on a UPS, you need to have a GFCI on the output of that UPS. Otherwise, if your regular GFCI trips as it's supposed to, the UPS will sense no power and turn on. If whatever tripped the GFCI is being powered by the UPS, then it's back live again and will start shocking again... until the UPS runs out of power or trips its internal breaker. Food for thought.
1. You *need* a GFCI outlet on everything in your tank that can put electricity in the water, regardless of grounding probe or not. The GFCI protects *you*.
2. If you believe stray voltage is detrimental to the health of your tank's inhabitants, then a ground probe will take away that stray voltage. But if it is *not* plugged into a GFCI outlet, you will have no idea something is "leaking" voltage. When things "leak" voltage, it is just a matter of time before electrolysis causes it to leak nastier things that will for sure be detrimental to the health of your tank.
3. If you use a ground probe in a GFCI outlet, it may trip the GFCI outlet leaving you without power. Plan accordingly. It will trip at the worst opportunity.
4. If you don't use a ground probe, but use a GFCI outlet, if a device "leaks" voltage, you won't necessarily feel it or trip your GFCI if you just stick your hands in the water. You have to stick your hand in the water AND ground yourself. That's harder to do than it sounds. But if you do, your GFCI will trip if it's operating correctly. You'll get a buzz, but it won't be lights out for you.
To me, and I'm probably wrong somewhere there, those seem like the "for sure" things you can say. So it all gets down to whether or not you think stray voltage is a health problem for fish, and how you want to deal with when (not if) something shorts out in your tank. I've been lit up by a shorting powerhead in my tank. I had my hands in the tank for a while dealing with some algea when my arm touched a screw on my light fixture that ended up grounding me. My GFCI tripped. My arm was tingly. But the GFCI did what it was supposed to do.
One thing that is often overlooked in discussions about GFCIs... if you have some of your equipment on a UPS, you need to have a GFCI on the output of that UPS. Otherwise, if your regular GFCI trips as it's supposed to, the UPS will sense no power and turn on. If whatever tripped the GFCI is being powered by the UPS, then it's back live again and will start shocking again... until the UPS runs out of power or trips its internal breaker. Food for thought.
