auto top off

J

jwill275

Member
I have an RO/DI filter from Air, Water and Ice (Typhoon) that uses an auto valve shut off. The filtered water goes into a storage tank. I decided to get another float valve and split the line and have another line going into my sump for top off.

My question is will the water be too cold coming directly from the filter? The water temp is probably around 65. Should I try and run the line through a heated bucket of water?

Thanks

John
 
the temp shouldn't be a problem, but there are a few other problems. First of all a float valve in the sump can get salt creep on it and leak over time. can be easily solved by cleaning it every once in a while. But the bigger problem is that for the first few ounces after the RO turns on the water quality is not as good. Not usually a problem because the gallons after it dilute it. But with a float valve in your sump the RO unit will cycle on and off a lot only to make a few ounces of water at a time. This will result in lower quality water topping off your tank. you might want to look into setting up float switches and a pump. just some food for thought.
 
like shyland mentioned, having a direct line from your ro/di to your sump is a risk. one that i choose not to take. if for some reason the valve sticks open you'll wind up with a lotta dead things in your tank. many people tend to have the ro/di line fed to a holding container where you have some type of dosing feed. My setup, which also comprises of a Typhoon ro/di, is split as well. 1 line to my holding tank where i can have a large supply of ro/di, which also feeds my freshly made saltwater tank. and the other line runs to my 10g bucket next to my MT. that bucket is fed with a pump to my dosing bin.
 
Why is the initial water quality less? I have a TDS meter which shows 0 when I first turn on the system. Curious why the water quality is not as good when you first turn on the system.

Thanks,
Walter
 
John,

The RO/DI water ATO at 65 degrees should not be a problem.

A tip that I used from my sump builder is "if you decide to use an electronic ATO", is that I have mine set to go on a couple of times a day for a short period of time, and also having more than one ATO device helps. The concept on mine, is both units (which are setup at different set points), have to be on for the RO/DI to turn on.

Also, since mine is set to go on several times a day, the water going into the tank, is not a significant amount, so the temperature difference will not make a difference.

For me, the more important concern is point of failure and a possible flood. So you want to setup your system with that in mind.

Hope this helps.
 
Larry,

I agree, I am setting up an electronic switch in the sump. Actually there will be two switches. One to open the RO/DI valve and one to switch it off in the case the first switch gets stuck. It's actually very simple. I will upload pics when complete.

-Walter
 
Walter,

As you can imagine, there are variations on the dual protection to avoid floods.

As a note of caution, Melev, editor of Reef magazine and guru on sumps never recommends having a faucet hookup that is always turned on and going to an RO/DI.

However, I do have my RO/DI plumbed to an always on Faucet. I also have a small water alert for the floor in case of floods. I just wish my water alert was really hooked to shut the faucet. Aaaaahhhh, add that to my wish list.
 
Do you know why he recommends not having an always on connection? My assumption is that its the same reason you should use breaded hoses to your washing machine and not the rubber hoses that come with it. They blow, however I think off the top of my head the 1/4 inch RO lines are rated for 140 or 160 psi? It maybe even higher. What I think he also maybe talking about is if you do not have an auto shutdown switch for that shuts down both blue and red (clean and dirty) lines. Otherwise when you leave the always on connection and the shutdown valve shuts both red and blue lines the pressure will equalize between the membrane. So I see no ill effect as long as there is no constant efluent flow.
 
I don't know the physics behind the water quality being lower when it first turns on, but i have read it in many places and just kind of assumed it was true. Either way it doesn't seem good to have the RO cycling on and off that often just to make a few drops of water.

I have mine setup with a 5 gallon bucket full of RO and an aqualifter pump wired to float switches in the sump. When the float drops the pump turns on. I then have a solenoid valve setup to open when the bucket is empty and close when it's full. A little complicated but i never have to touch it.
 
Walter,

Even though I don't follow Melev's advice. Here goes my take on this.

Leaks will always eventually occur. If you once a week fill a bucket of RO/DI water and that is used for the ATO, then the most that will fail (besides what's in the tank and sump is the bucket. However, with an always on faucet, you have the potential for the water to keep coming, coming and coming...

Actually, I like his advice, however, I do like the convenience that I never have to fill the bucket for the ATO bucket source.

As you know having a flood is no fun. So I see both sides to the argument (safety versus convenience).

As with any advice, there is pros and cons.
 
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Interesting.......I currently have my top off set to go directly to a float valve on my sump. I never had a problem with it and never thought about the potential problems form that setup. But....now you have me thinking. I think I'm going to add a solenoid valve and a second float to turn off the solenoid if the first float valve fails. I think i will also add a timer for the solenoid so that it isn't open all the time to help with the other issue mentioned. Pretty simple and inexpensive additions to have more peace of mind. I was considering getting the solenoid from www.autotopoff.com. Anyone know of any place that sells the solenoid locally or another place that has a better one online?
 
Dont mean to hijack your thread John.......but I also had another question regarding this topic......I set my auto topoff to use warm water instead of cold water. I figured this would help keep my heaters less busy in the winter since my sump is in an unfinished "cold" basement and the heaters have to work overtime to keep up. Anyone see any issues with running warm or hot water through the RO/DI??
 
Chris,

If I am not mistaken, your RO/DI unit is more efficient with warm water than cold water. However, I would think using warm or hot water would increase the fuel bill, so with the small amount of water being produced in RO/DI, I would think using cold water would be the cheapest and then using a heater. I think I heard that cold water would produce more waste water, but not sure on this.

Not stating a fact, just my thoughts...
 
it's more efficient with warmer water, not warm water, if i recall. i was taught that warmer water holds more waste such as metals, which is why they say to use cold water when making coffee. if it was the other case they would say to hook up your ro/di unit to the hot water line instead of the cold.
 
Thanks Guys!! Food for thought, I was initially going to use the five gallon bucket as the source for the top off. I would use a small pump as use the top of system Shyland showed me on Aquahub.com.

I may have re-think this, I liked the Air, Water and Ice float valve because it didn't require any electrical work!

Thanks Again.

John
 
RO

RO

My initial water quality thru the RO is terrble compared to 3 minutes of running. The membrane will not get "flushed" if you only run it for very small water incriments so it is not a good idea.
Run a good quantity and make up from that.
Hot water thru the ro is not a good idea, 78 is the optimal temperature.
 
Vinny what do you mean "Flushed" ? The only flushing I am aware of is when you reverse the flow so that any particals trapped on the presure side of the membrane are flushed into the waste(red) line. Tempature should be around 70deg or close. What may happen in the extreme hot or cold is that the membrane pores will either grow(hot) or constrict(cold) either extreme is not favorable. So when using regular cold water line typically 55deg you may want to fush(reverse flow) more often.

The reason they tell you to use cold water for coffee is because typically less TDS. The reason for this is more minerals, metals... fall into solution at higher temps. Honestly we are talking about the pipes from your heater to your sink. It really isnt much. Anyway I think thats why they say that but cant be sure.

If you have a membrane that outputs more TDS when it is first turned on you have a bad membrane. RO uses pressure to reverse that natural movement of fluid from saturation to less saturation (bad explanation I know but a good one is too long).
so if you turn on your RO flow and a more TDS is out put you have a problem. My assumption is that after a few minutes the pores that are torn open eventually get clogged giving you less TDS? Not sure why else this would happen?

Just my 2 cents.

Walter
 
I have my auto top off directly connected to my sump. I have an electronic float valve in the sump that turns on a valve. The water goes through a mechanical float valve so if the electronic valve sticks, the mechanical float will stop it. i also have the the topoff hooked up to a timer that will only let it run for 10 minutes at a time - again if anything sticks, only 10 minutes of water will enter the sump. i use my aquacontroller to time the topoff - 3 times a day. This also helps with the intitial TDS creep - because the RO water runs for a few minutes rather than constantly throughout the day. I also use a needle valve on the line from the RO to slow down the flow to the valve and sump. Had too many floods in the past - none with this system so far and i do not anticipate any. I am going to clean my float valves this weekend just because i posted this.

sal
 
John,
The risks far outweight the benefits of hooking your unit directly to the sump for topoff. A better method is to use a smaller container to hold topoff water and then hook up the ATO to a pump placed in that container. You can also use a timer on a soleniod or plug the ATO into the timer. This way you have three fail safes - timer limits how often the pump can be activated 2-the float switch 3 - the size of the container limits how much water can be added to the tank even if the first two fail ' on . '
 
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