auto water change

Ricardo18

New member
I have a simple plan for my auto water change and can use some validation;
-Install a variable speed pump in my salt water barrel to feed 10 gallons per day directly into the bottom of my display tank (set on a simple timer)
-This pushes out 10 gallons from my sump, that has a hole (plumbed to my floor drain) drilled at the "max sump level" mark.
-Voila..10 gallons changed at about 85% efficiency.

Ok..this is too simple..what have I missed?
 
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I don't see what it won't work as long as the sump overflow hole is right at the waterline. You would probably do better and more accurate with a Litermeter though. Plus...if you loose power and the DT drains some to your sump like they all do, then your excess water will run out the overflow hole. Once power is restored and the return pump start running water back to your DT, you'd be extremely low on water, thus kicking in your ATO (I assume you have one), and drastically changing your salinity.

Not worth it in my opinion.
 
..Hmmmm...good point.
I am considering the Genesis system. The reviews are good on it, I am just not too excited about the complexity of all the components.
The last option I am considering is simple enough;
just plumbing in a 50 gallon tank into my system, (my DT will gravity feed into it and then it will then gravity feed into my sump) then once a week I will isolate it (take it off line) and empty the old/pump in the new, then place it back into the system flow.
 
I am concerned about your description "directly into the bottom of my display tank." You don't want to have the two containers directly connected by pipe/hose or you will create a back siphon. Also, your description does not consider the effects of evaporation and the need for topping off the system. Do you already have a separate auto top-off system?

Overflowing directly to a stand pipe in the sump is a good way to go. It ensures you won't have any flooding from your system. But it also doesn't account for variances in water level due to evaporation.

A more stable set-up would be to introduce a smaller, intermediate saltwater reservoir. Going direct from your large saltwater reservoir leaves you vulnerable to disaster if your timer should fail for whatever reason, or if you set up a back siphon in error. Your best bet would be to pump ten gallons from your large saltwater reservoir into an intermediate ten gallon reservoir, and then do your water replacement from the intermediate reservoir. This cuts down the possibility of something failing when you're away (it ALWAYS happens when you're away). As I understand it, the Genesis already does all this set-up for you.

Dave.M
 
Thanks for the input Dave. I do have an ATO set up.
I think I will plumb in a sump overflow just for safety, above the "return pump off" high water mark...can't hurt. The evaporation piece of the puzzle remains a hard one to work out.
I like the idea of placing a 50 gallon tank in line , then taking it off line to change the water, then back on. This will result in a nice gradual 15% water change. Its not automatic, but is minimal effort and has a nice positive aspect to it. (extra 50 gallons of water volume in the system)
..then when I get tired of doing this, I go buy the Genesis!:rollface:
 
I'm trying to figure out how to do water changes with my Apex. The thing should have that capability without having to spend more on a separate system to do it. I looked at the Genesis systems and they seem to have a proven record, but the Apex is pretty powerful in it's own right and should be able to accomplish what should be a simple task.
 
I have a pair of 40B tanks that I 'switch' in and out of the overflow circuit effecting a 38 gallon W/C on my 265.
 
I would think using the Apex ( I have it also) for water changes would require it to control the on/off function for the;
-exchange pump.
-irrigation solenoid valve to take the exchange barrel off, then on line.
-along with the level sensor in the exchange barrel to coordinate the dance.
 
I've heard that people have been successful using two BRS 50ml dosing pumps. I don't have experience with this and I'm not sure how long they will hold up but it would work. Just take some monitoring
 
I'm trying to figure out how to do water changes with my Apex. The thing should have that capability without having to spend more on a separate system to do it. I looked at the Genesis systems and they seem to have a proven record, but the Apex is pretty powerful in it's own right and should be able to accomplish what should be a simple task.


The issue you have with doing it via the Apex let alone a pair of peristaltic pumps is that you typically would be using two seperate pumps which creates an issue. No two pumps pump exactly the same amount. The slightest variation in flow will impact salinity over the course of time. Then you factor in hose lengths which also impact flow. If the water in and water out lines are different in length and or different in height then the flow will change some more. If the pumps are at different heights, the flow varies. If the water level in the sump is lower than the water level in your salt water holding tank, then again the flow changes due to pressure from the inlet sides of the pumps. This is the case whether it's a conventional pump or a peristaltic pump.

The only way to get it close to perfect would be a dual head Cole Palmer pump and control its time intervals via the Apex. Problem there is that those pumps are extremely slow and noisy and if you want or need to do a faster large water change, you are more or less screwed.

I used to use a Litermeter 3 with a slave pump to change out 3.7 gallons a day. It worked great for that and I used it for nearly 3 years. My only gripes were that it is slow in doing so which wasn't a huge issue. The other gripe was the regular maintenance and calibration required to keep the pumps working consistently and at even flow rates. Then you also have to convert liters to gallons. It's also a bit of a pain to change the volume if you need to do a different size water change. If you need to do a large water change or a fast water change, forget about it.

I recently switched to the Genesis Renew system which in my opinion is one of the better upgrades I did to my tank. Prior to getting it, I designed I gallon metering reservoirs that I planned on using with my Apex. In the end, I decided that while I could save myself a bit of money by building my own reservoirs, the Genesis offered something that the Apex didn't. Simple flexibility to change out a specific volume every day or every week or if I wanted to swap out 40 gallons at once, push a couple buttons and watch it go. With the Apex, you would have create a bunch of programs based on time intervals, have float switches etc if you suddenly needed to do a 50%, 20% or what ever water change. The Genesis does it and does it perfectly every time without fiddling with programs.

A month or so ago I had a major disaster in my tank. That Genesis proved it's weight in gold. After rapidly changing out 200 gallons of water in 20 minutes via siphon and mixing pump, I used my Genesis to change out 50 gallons the next day followed by 40 gallons the following day and it was simple, brainless, reasonably fast and dead nuts accurate.

So in short, sure you can kludge together an auto water change system. The key is not having a situation that invokes drifts in salinity and that is something that is next to impossible to do with two separate pumps unless you meter exactly how much water goes in and out and the Genesis is the only system that does that and does it perfectly with no maintenance and no need for programming or calibration. Simply set the number of gallons you want to change and whether it's a one time big change, a weekly change or daily.

As for ATO, my Apex manages that and I have it set not to trigger the ATO unless the water level is low for more than 4 minutes which is plenty of time for the Genesis to swap a gallon.

I run a very large Apex system. I monitor salinity, PH, ORP, water on the floor, etc. I have 7 EB8's and over 40 active outlets along with 3 Tunzes and nearly a dozen flow profiles for them. I've got more lines of code in my programming than even I can comprehend and while it would have been very easy to create some programs for my Apex to do close to the same thing, it just would not have been as reliable let alone convenient.

I'm here to tell you that when it comes to doing water changes and doing them with pinpoint no nonsense accuracy, the Renew can't be beat. I could have done it easily with the Apex but it never would have been as good, accurate let alone efficient as a true dedicated device designed for just that purpose.

So there is my 2 cents. Take it for what it's worth. The Genesis is by no means cheap but for me, its worth every penny. That is if you can afford the space the metering bins take up. It's by no means a small system but boy does it work well.
 
I respect your opinion and am still considering the Renew. Actually checking their web site, every single system is "Out of Stock". Odd? Do you know if they're changing the product lineup?

I was considering using the Apex with Aqua Gadget ATO. It uses a diaphragm pump. I would suspect it meters water pretty consistently. A similar system to the Genesis could very well be configured. I know you program the Genesis to change a given volume of water, but the Genesis doesn't actually measure the water in the sense that is can determine what's passing thru the line. It just counts how many times the bucket is filled. I would think that can be accomplished with an Apex in some way. But as you said, the Renew is rather fool proof, so it is worth a look.
 
Apex with dual head Cole-Parmer Masterflex pump

done!

Any chance you would care to elaborate on that a bit? I'm not meaning that in a sarcastic way, I'm honestly very curious. I'm pretty much set on the LiterMeter 3, but I can still very much be convinced there is a better/more cost effective way and I do have an Apex.
 
Elaborating for Jamey:
a dual head pump like is supported on the cole parmer will pull the exact same amount of water through both heads (because they both spin at the exact same rate because they are all on the same gear). One pulls from the aquarium to your drainage. The other pulls from the saltwater mixing station into your aquarium.

If it runs for one minute - then you know you've pulled and replaced exactly x.x gallons

There's no need to adjust programming like would be required of other pumping solutions where seperate pumps are used from differing heights with different hoses.
 
Sure can, several of us use a Cole-Parmer masterflex peristaltic pumps this is a medical grade device designed for laboratory use and built to last forever.

Obviously new there expensive but fairly easy to find used on eBay or in the selling forums around and easiest is to buy one with dual heads already but if not you can add heads just match sure they match in size.

So essential they are the same as how the litermeter works and by using dual heads it's removes at exactly the same rate as it replaces. I set my Apex to run it for about 25 minutes twice a day effectively changes 3 gallons a day.

I thought about all the choices too and found it was cheapest to go this route and the masterflex being a laboratory grade device appears excellent in quality and I did have to buy the correct tubing for the heads but even that is rated for 4000 hrs so it's seems like a rock solid set up.

I use this one http://www.coleparmer.com/Product/M..._speed_drive_6_to_300_rpm_115_VAC/EW-07520-60

With these heads http://www.coleparmer.com/Product/M..._tubing_fixed_occlusion_CRS_rotor/EW-77200-52

Pharmed tubing http://www.coleparmer.com/Product/Masterflex_PharMed_BPT_Tubing_L_S_24_25/EW-06508-24

(Thanks TedC always funny when someone suggest something never to follow up)
 
Hmm... Very interesting. What about the pumping power of these things? I am needing to pump up through the attic and over about 25 feet or so. Can these handle pumping that height/distance like I've been told the LM3 can? I'm definitely curious.
 
It could probably be done with a solenoid valve, some float valves, and apex.

Have the apex shut off your return pump and ato for a set ammount of time (lets say 20 mins). Two minutes later apex turns on a solenoid valve that opens draining the sump.
Next have the apex close the valve after 8 minutes. Then apex turns on a pump for 10 minutes that pumps in fresh saltwater. Wired is a float valve. when the new saltwater fills up the sump to the float switch it turns it off. when the 10 minutes are up the pump is turned off and the return/ato turn back on.

The trick would be aligning the float valve correctly. With an ato in place your water level should be the same in the sump whenever the return is shutoff. I would place the switch to trigger here. As long as the ato has been running then you should replace the same amount of water as was drained.


All that said I bought a reef genesis water changer + ato. I haven't ran it yet though.
 
Sure can, several of us use a Cole-Parmer masterflex peristaltic pumps this is a medical grade device designed for laboratory use and built to last forever.

Obviously new there expensive but fairly easy to find used on eBay or in the selling forums around and easiest is to buy one with dual heads already but if not you can add heads just match sure they match in size.

So essential they are the same as how the litermeter works and by using dual heads it's removes at exactly the same rate as it replaces. I set my Apex to run it for about 25 minutes twice a day effectively changes 3 gallons a day.

I thought about all the choices too and found it was cheapest to go this route and the masterflex being a laboratory grade device appears excellent in quality and I did have to buy the correct tubing for the heads but even that is rated for 4000 hrs so it's seems like a rock solid set up.

I use this one http://www.coleparmer.com/Product/M..._speed_drive_6_to_300_rpm_115_VAC/EW-07520-60

With these heads http://www.coleparmer.com/Product/M..._tubing_fixed_occlusion_CRS_rotor/EW-77200-52

Pharmed tubing http://www.coleparmer.com/Product/Masterflex_PharMed_BPT_Tubing_L_S_24_25/EW-06508-24

(Thanks TedC always funny when someone suggest something never to follow up)

a Stenner pump is a good alternate to the old colparmer pump

http://www.uswatersystems.com/residential/systems/stenner-pumps/stenner100dm4-double-head-adjustable-output-low-pressure-pump.html

These come in dual head and are made here in USA. Replacement parts are readily available also.
 
It could probably be done with a solenoid valve, some float valves, and apex.

Have the apex shut off your return pump and ato for a set ammount of time (lets say 20 mins). Two minutes later apex turns on a solenoid valve that opens draining the sump.
Next have the apex close the valve after 8 minutes. Then apex turns on a pump for 10 minutes that pumps in fresh saltwater. Wired is a float valve. when the new saltwater fills up the sump to the float switch it turns it off. when the 10 minutes are up the pump is turned off and the return/ato turn back on.

The trick would be aligning the float valve correctly. With an ato in place your water level should be the same in the sump whenever the return is shutoff. I would place the switch to trigger here. As long as the ato has been running then you should replace the same amount of water as was drained.


All that said I bought a reef genesis water changer + ato. I haven't ran it yet though.

I generally don't like this proposed method for one big reason. Once you turn off your return pump you are going to have at least some, and in my case a few gallons, drainage from the DT to the sump. This means that draining the return section and then filling it back up to a float switch is going to be that much more complicated.

Another reason that I don't like this is there is really no mixing of the new saltwater with existing tank water before the new stuff is pumped into the DT. Personally, I like to pump new water into the skimmer section of my sump such that it is mixing in with a significant volume of water before being pumped back into the DT. I'm guessing that I'm getting about a 50% dilution of new water in old water when doing a 25 gal water change since this is about the actual water volume in my sump.

I'm personally looking at going with the LM3 and doing continuous water changes so that everything stays up and running. This also greatly increases the dilution of new water since it's being added in such small quantities.
 
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