Automatic water changes

[der_wille_zur_macht]

I know there are a handful of URS regulars who have some degree of automation in their water change systems. I designed a fully automated system for my big tank but recently stopped using it and I wanted to toss around some ideas to compare notes with the rest of you.

My system is similar in function to what Randy H-F does, or the (brand name I can't remember) off the shelf product Pascal uses. It consisted of a storage container full of ASW in the basement. It is "still" and un-heated. There are two matched peristaltic pumps nearby, on timers. One pump sucks water out of the sump and pushes it down the drain. The other pump sucks from the storage tank and pushes into the sump. I can adjust the timer to change the volume and frequency of the water changes - the pumps are slow (about a gallon an hour) and the system volume is large enough that I don't have to heat or aerate the stored water, which is a big bonus considering I'm storing ~60g in an unheated basement that's around 55 degrees in the winter.

I like the ease of this system - the only "effort" is to dump salt in the mix tank and fill it with RO, then turn on the mix pump for a few hours. Depending on volume of the water changes I'd have to do this maybe once or twice a month.

My real issue with this system is that it pulls "clean" water from the water column. Meanwhile, I can see little piles of detritus building up in the display tank and on the rock. So what I've ended up doing is siphoning this waste. At first I was siphoning into a filter sock in the sump, which seemed partially effective, but then I started just siphoning down the drain and doing "normal" water changes - at which point, I figured - why bother with the automated system?

Any of you with automated systems ever had this thought process? Where did it leave you?

 

[pascal32]

I siphon once every month or two. tank stays pretty clean. water changer running at 10% per week

I let the water changer run all the time. when I do siphon (once a month or so) I drop a heater in the pre-mix bin and the tank gets an extra water change of an additional 10% or so.

I have two pumps in the pre-mix - one for the water changer, and a mag7 on the wall switch which directly transfers pre-mix into the sump via a 1" vinyl hose.

 

[madbomber]

You got me thinking. Google it, you will find allot of info on automatic water change system, from diy to off the shelf stuff. Here's one.

http://www.genesisreefsystems.com/products.php?cat=12

If I could make one "bullett proof" and compact enough, I would do this for my nano.

 

[pascal32]

You got me thinking. Google it, you will find allot of info on automatic water change system, from diy to off the shelf stuff. Here's one.

http://www.genesisreefsystems.com/products.php?cat=12

If I could make one "bullett proof" and compact enough, I would do this for my nano.

That is what I'm running. It's been great to me

I wrote a review here: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2128048

 

[Capt_Cully]

That thing is sick! I do like certain amount of automation. My fear with something like that is that I lose touch with my reef at a certain point. It's kind of like paying my 18 year old brother in law to mow my lawn. I roll my eyes when it's time to do it, but it's done my way, and it's a weekly inspection with a fine toothed comb.

Water changes are when I do my water testing. I siphon detritus and sand. I redistribute it to current caused bare spots. I inspect Coral encrustations. I pick through the sump and clean the skimmer.

My fear, for my personal style, is that any more automation I employ, the further my finger is from the pulse of the tank. Having to do things manually keeps me from procrastinating.

It doesn't answer your question, and that unit is VERY TEMPTING, but for me it'd be the separation between my reef being an art form versus another machine (born out of my own laziness).

Disclaimer, no offense to those who use one, I'm jealous, they look super nice!

 

[Gravesj1s]

Right along the same lines to what Cully stated.I purchased a reefiller dualhead but I dont use it for water changes.
Personally a fan of shallow sand,but also know they will accumulate detritus if I dont maintain it.Just my routine.I gravel vac it and siphon the mulm at every water change.

I ve just been using a brute can with a mag 9.5 soft plumbed to the tank.Mag is plugged into something similar to a dj strip.Strip then plugs into a rke- pc4.Flip of a switch it refills the tank with saltwater,turn it off it resumes the normal limewater addition using the same 2 floatswitches.Im always watching for the 10 minutes it takes to refill the tank during a waterchange refill ,whitch would be the only real chance of a flood.Its worked very well for me.

No issues I can find or have had to mention outside of my own doing.

-Steve

 

[pascal32]

Nate - sorry for derailing your thread!

The hands on is part of the joy with this hobby, unfortunately I get pulled away all to often - those are the times it's comforting to know that all is well and taken care of.

I will confess that having it has on occasion made me plop down on the couch and stare at the tank instead of doing something to it, which could be a good or bad thing

 

[rjmayes34]

i think they look cool and sound cool, but i feel like i would get a "better" water change doing 25 gallons at once of dirty water, then adding 25 gallon of clean water. It seems like 1 gallon at a time would take forever to get a decent turn around.

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

No need to be sorry at all, this is the sort of info I was wondering about. To be fair I haven't really run my unit long enough to form a solid opinion one way or the other, just wondering what others who have systems think about how they like it.

On previous systems I did things more or less manually, with a portable trashcan with a powerhead and hose to pump water around. I think part of my problem with this tank is I designed things to give myself too many options. I can do "fully automatic" small changes like Pascal, or manual siphon then automated fill like Steve (there's a Little Giant pump on the storage tank in the basement in addition to the peristaltic pump). Or fully manual with heated water in a portable trashcan like I did on past tanks. Every time I think about water changes I just go around and around trying to decide which method is best longterm.

Pascal, I may just end up doing what you're doing. Leave the automated system running and do really small infrequent changes to siphon gunk out.

 

[Capt_Cully]

What is the actual amount of water changed via continuous changes. Does it become a system of diminishing returns? As you ad new water, does it not dilute the tanks water such that future "dirty water" actually contains a fraction of clean water? I would presume a gallon at a time makes this negligible, but over time does it add up?

I recall Tom/tmz breaking it down in the past....

I'm only smart enough to remember his post exists, but not smart enough to recall its particulars.

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Randy H-F helped popularize continuous or nearly continuous water changes and wrote an article in RK mag about it a few years ago, iirc. He did the math showing the "diminishing returns" and it didn't turn out as bad as you might think - off the top of my head, I want to say you were essentially losing 10 - 20% of your "new" water down the drain which isn't a big deal to me.

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Here it is:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php

The relevant section:

Continuous water changes: Continuous water changes, despite their name, are not necessarily performed every minute of every day. The distinguishing feature of these changes is that water is added at the same time that it is removed. The actual rate of addition can be high or low. Reef aquarists (myself included) most often perform these types of water changes with two matched pumps, one that removes the old water and one that adds the new water. Often these pumps are part of the same mechanism (such as two sets of tubing on a peristaltic pump or two heads on a diaphragm pump), but that is not a requirement. I use a dual head diaphragm pump capable of a maximum of 30 gallons per day for each head (a Reef Filler pump from Champion Lighting). In my setup, once I have a 44-gallon trash can full of new salt water, all I do to perform a 44 gallon or smaller water change is plug in the pump. The wastewater is sent down the drain. Sometimes I change 44 gallons in one shot, taking about a day and a half. Sometimes I pump for a few hours at a time, and then wait for a few days.

These changes are slightly less efficient than single batch water changes of the same total volume. A continuous water change of 30% exactly matches one batch 26% water change. As with very small batch water changes, these have the advantage of neither stressing the organisms (assuming the change is done reasonably slowly), nor altering the water level in the aquarium. The ease of doing such changes automatically also makes it far more likely that busy or lazy aquarists will actually do them.

 

[pascal32]

i think they look cool and sound cool, but i feel like i would get a "better" water change doing 25 gallons at once of dirty water, then adding 25 gallon of clean water. It seems like 1 gallon at a time would take forever to get a decent turn around.

25 gallons in continuous mode on the renew system takes 1:15 to 1:40 (pro system is faster as it uses float switches to pick up full versus waiting).

The idea of going slowly is what appeals to me - over the course of the week I'm slowly putting in new water and slowly affecting the chemistry (to a hopefully not noticeable point to the corals). fresh mix has a KH around 12 while my tank is at 8.5 - small water changes don't cause the alkalinity to move, whereas 25 gallons of new water at a KH of 12 does.

that and I don't have to keep the pre-mix heated