Bacteria in a bottle

[Taahirs]

Apologise if this has been covered before. If it has, please send me a link.

In the past few days a few people have said that the 'bacteria in a bottle' type things aren't the exact nitrifying bacteria that we need for our tanks.

Apparently Dr Tims and Zeo come the closest to replicating it. But things like Seachem stability aren't the strain that we need.

Is this true or false? Please give the reasoning behind your answer as well.

 

[bertoni]

I haven't seen any evidence that bacteria in a bottle do much, particularly over the long haul. A lot of what we call the cycle is the waiting time for the decay of any organic debris in the live rock. The bacteria that perform filtration in our tanks live on surfaces, not in the water column, so I don't know how easy it'd be to cultivate and then bottle them. In addition, bacteria are famous for mutating rapidly, making it hard to maintain a population in an artificial environment.

 

[nmotz]

Yeah you'll get mixed opinions on this. I think the best you can do whether you use bottled bacteria or not is to test consistently for ammonia/nitrite to ensure the cycle is complete. In my opinion, every tank set-up to include the combination of live/dry rock, method of cycle (shrimp/bottled ammonia, ghost feeding, etc) will yield a slightly different result in terms of how long and how effectively the tank cycles.

I think people spend a lot of time trying to figure out what exactly bottled bacteria is and isn't when all that matters is if it actually enhances the strength/effectiveness of the cycle. I'll tell you that the tried and true methods of using LR to introduce bacteria populations is probably more effective long term, BUT bottled bacteria will allow you to start stocking a tank sooner. But beware, bottled bacteria populations are probably not going to be sufficient for sustaining a fully stocked tank right off the bat.

 

[Taahirs]

Thanks for the reply. I'm really interested to hear the outcome of this discussion. So of anyone has anything to add, please add your opinion / facts too

 

[bertoni]

What is meant by the "strength/effectiveness" of the cycle?

Personally, I think over the long term, the method of "cycling" is irrelevant. Bacteria spread very well on their own and populations can shift rapidly, so I doubt there's any long-term difference.

 

[nmotz]

There are some pretty long threads on this already if you want to do a search for some of them. I think Bertoni and some of the other gurus on here have already slugged it out on this before.

 

[nmotz]

What is meant by the "strength/effectiveness" of the cycle?

Personally, I think over the long term, the method of "cycling" is irrelevant. Bacteria spread very well on their own and populations can shift rapidly, so I doubt there's any long-term difference.

What I mean is that it appears a tank can actually cycle in some sense but will become "un-cycled" if the bacteria population is insufficient to handle the addition of too many fish/inverts.

It just seems that some people will test for ammonia/nitrite, find them to be zero with a small amount of nitrates (i.e. the end of the cycle) and introduce too many fish/inverts for the bacteria to process (the tank was cycled, but was not a very thorough cycle). That to me indicates that the strength of the cycle was insufficient. On the other hand, if people allow more time for bacteria populations to comprehensively establish in the tank, it can handle the introduction of a higher bioload.

Some people try to get ahead of this curve with bottled bacteria and in my opinion some of them can, but I'm not sure if this has more to do with the bottled bacteria or something else. I do think that bottled bacteria can cycle a tank well enough to introduce the first livestock sooner, but you still have to allow sufficient time before you fully stock the tank.

Again, just like almost everything else in this hobby, I admit this is based mostly on anecdote.

 

[bertoni]

Adding a large number of fish at once can cause problems in any tank. Once the food source for bacteria disappears, they tend to die or become inactive rapidly, and so I don't think that adding a lot of ammonia or similar actions accomplishes much on average. In theory, one can build up a bacterial population by feeding increasing amounts of food just as you're about to introduce fish, and I suspect that'll work, but any significant dry spell for food is likely to have a large impact on the filtration capacity.

 

[Taahirs]

I found a video where Dr Tim explains what the bacteria in a bottle is. May I post it, or not?

 

[Greybeard]

The entire subject never made any sense to me. What's your hurry? Why put something in your tank that may, or may not, work as well as a little time and a chunk of salad shrimp? This is a hobby, right? You're supposed to be enjoying this. Relax. In my experience, in this hobby, at least, nothing good happens fast.

My 4 month old system has snails, a pair of clowns, a smith's blenny, and 5 small, inexpensive SPS frags. It'll probably be that way until spring... let the system age a bit, let the critter populations grow in the fuge, get a pattern developed for maintenance, make sure things are just the way I want them. No rush.

 

[nmotz]

The entire subject never made any sense to me. What's your hurry? Why put something in your tank that may, or may not, work as well as a little time and a chunk of salad shrimp? This is a hobby, right? You're supposed to be enjoying this. Relax. In my experience, in this hobby, at least, nothing good happens fast.

My 4 month old system has snails, a pair of clowns, a smith's blenny, and 5 small, inexpensive SPS frags. It'll probably be that way until spring... let the system age a bit, let the critter populations grow in the fuge, get a pattern developed for maintenance, make sure things are just the way I want them. No rush.

In general I would agree with this^

It's just that I cannot deny that for limited applications, especially when trying to speed up the cycle in dry rock only tanks, bottled bacteria can function to some extent. Allowing a tank to mature for a month or two is still better IMO.

 

[CStrickland]

Setting up a qt, or an all mined-rock tank is different than using live rock. If the bacteria gets it going a little faster I don't see the harm. The worst that can happen is it doesn't work, right?

I do think it's not the best thing to focus on when you are starting the hobby. If people spent as much time learning about what their parameters mean, or what diseases to look out for, as they do trying to shave a few weeks of the cycle they would be better reefers in the long run. But if that's what piques their interest and then they go on to learn all about different nitrifyers, that's cool too.

Perspective is key. For as much as people argue over this, most barely remember how they cycled their tank after a few months.

 

[bertoni]

Posting a link to the video would be fine.

 

[Taahirs]

The entire subject never made any sense to me. What's your hurry? Why put something in your tank that may, or may not, work as well as a little time and a chunk of salad shrimp? This is a hobby, right? You're supposed to be enjoying this. Relax. In my experience, in this hobby, at least, nothing good happens fast.



My 4 month old system has snails, a pair of clowns, a smith's blenny, and 5 small, inexpensive SPS frags. It'll probably be that way until spring... let the system age a bit, let the critter populations grow in the fuge, get a pattern developed for maintenance, make sure things are just the way I want them. No rush.

I agree completely. I added Seachem stability but still waited a few weeks longer before adding fish. Then a good 3-4 month wait before the next.

I'm just curious to see if this whole bacteria in a bottle thing works.

 

[Taahirs]

http://www.mrsaltwatertank.com/bacteria-in-a-bottle-snake-oil-or-worth-trusting/

I'm talking about the part where he tells us that the other strains are meant for sewerage.

I don't agree with the whole, what's the point of an empty tank. Just add fish statements.

 

[laga77]

The entire subject never made any sense to me. What's your hurry?

When you cycle a tank, all you are doing is growing a couple of bacterial cultures. Just like they do in a Petrie dish in a lab or a loaf of bread when you bake. You can do it one way and take a month or you can do it another way and take two weeks. Either way you wind up at the same place. I do not like staring at an empty tank for more than necessary. I have used Dr Tim`s and other products in the past with success, and plan do so again when I start my new tank in the next couple of days.

 

[tmz]

In the past few days a few people have said that the 'bacteria in a bottle' type things aren't the exact nitrifying bacteria that we need for our tanks.

The question boils down to whether you trust the viability and benefit of any bacteria in a given product based on anecdotal accounts and manufacturer's claims. Some seem to claim viable heterotrophic bacteria and/or organic carbon are included which take up ammonia preferentially in a single step process while other products seem to claim they include viable autrotrophic bacteria associated with the nitrogen cycle(ie nitrfication and denitrification) . All of which occur naturally in a tank in balance based on nutrient levels in a particular aquarium.

 

[Dmorty217]

I have used StartSmart just 3 weeks ago to help cycle a 125g QT. The stuff works, I had been pouring pure ammonia in the tank for a week straight, so much in fact the ammonia was over 10ppm. I added some start smart and 2 days later the ammonia was at .5, one day later it was at 0. I pour ammonia in the tank every other day and it's not detectable 24 hrs later. Fish will be going in soon.

 

[Mark9]

I've used bio-Spira and dr tims and ammonia a couple of times, shortened the cycle and worked great for me. The stuff works.
Generally, the people who bash it haven't tried it and are "purists".

 

[tmz]

I haven't seen any "bashing" . It's important to question the efficacy of commercial products and their marketing. Caveat emptor. "It works" doesn't really say much about what it does and how it does it. Not sure what a "purist" in this context means either. There plenty are anecdotal accounts of folks who like to use these supplements and others who don't. Attempts to marginalize contrasting opinions by labeling them as "purist " or "bashing" isn't helpful.