Base to Live ratio question

[DKAudio]

I am new and have not done SW yet. My tank will be a 135 FOWLR tank. The tank is full of water (no salt yet) and about 3/4" of fine sand. I drilled a hole and have a 2" bulkhead going down to a sump. A Quiet One 4000 will pump the water back up and into the tank via a verticle spray bar (hole drilled in top to break syphon in case of power outage). I do plan on putting a protein skimmer in my sump.

Here are my questions...

What kind of skimmer do you recommend? My bio-load probably won't be too high, my sump will have about 15 gallons thus making the total volume around 150. Again, this will be a FOWLR tank. Cost is definitely an issue as well as power consumption. I am also restricted on height since my stand is metal and has horizontal cross bars on the base. I am going to have to build a plywood stand that stradles the metal bars for my sump to sit on. This leaves me with about 17" of height for the protein skimmer under the tank.

I plan on adding 135 lbs of rock. Since I am on a budget I want to buy the maximum amount of base (probably Eco-Rox) and seed it with live. What is the min of live rock I can buy?

Do I need the heater, protein skimmer and water flow running while I wait for the base rock to become live?

Should I add a piece of grocery store shrimp to the tank right away? How long do I keep it in there?

Thank you!

Dan

 

[Sk8r]

You need the water to circulate, and it is useful to fire up the heat and lights (lights on timer) so you can start to balance your heat budget (except the skimmer pump) before you get started.
I just use a tiny pinch a day of regular fish food. Just as effective and doesn't smell.
Stop when you get ammonia.
I would recommend a larger sump if you can possibly manage it.
I use a 30 for my 54g, and did use a 20.
Buy a skimmer for 2x your tank volume. I'd just use straight nozzles rather than a spray bar or you'll be using your tank for a skimmer (froth) as well as your skimmer below. Go used on a skimmer---ok as long as you inspect to be sure it just needs cleaning. clean with white vinegar soak.

You could get away with just 5 lbs of live rock, and patience. Use the savings to enlarge that sump and get a good skimmer.

Coming up from nearly all base rock takes about 8 weeks instead of 4. Big savings, though. Use limestone rock, porous. Old dead coral is great for this. Eco rox great.

 

[billdogg]

I agree with Sk8tr - you don't have to use any live rock at all if you don't want too - it will just take longer to cycle. Eventually ALL the rock will be "live rock".

for the sump - for all practical purposes - bigger = better - i use a 50g sump and a 120g refugium for my 150 DT.

I use a spray bar also - it is mounted horizontally at the bottom rear of the tank to help prevent buildup of bad stuff behind the rocks, and have another return maniflold around the perimeter at the top of the tank with locline ballvalves/diffusers to regulate flow .

after all is setup, check parameters frequently until ammonia and nitrites are zero - nitrates will then begin to fall as you do water changes and the (now) live rock does it's job.

best advice??? - go slow!

 

[DKAudio]

Cool, I will use all base or just a few lbs of live and be patient.

My sump is actually 29 gallons but I figured there will only be about 15 gallons of water in it.

The spray bar is mounted in the side (oposite from the bulkhead). I figure this would move the water from in to out the most effeciently and get movement across the entire length of the tank.

Sk8r...are you saying to run everything except the skimmer until I stock?

 

[DKAudio]

I forgot who said this but it is a very respectable member on the board here. He said that even FOWLR tanks should have one coral...
Either green star polyp or green mushrooms. First, what would you recommend. Second, just one? I guess they are very hardy, don't require any special lighting and will tell you something is wrong with the water quality way before the fish react.

This is my plan (double checking since I am new to SW). Add 135lbs of Eco-Rox, run heater, lights, and sump pump (NOT SKIMMER YET). Add a little fish food everyday until Amonia is detected. This means the Nitrite bacteria is alive and working. Then let it run its cycle until Nitrite and Amonia are 0 and I get readible Nitrates meaning the tank is cycled. At this point I will start running the skimmer and add one of the coral above. Wait and let the bacteria catch up to the additional bio-load then start adding fish.

Does this sound ok?

Thanks

Dan

 

[BurntOutReefer]

"you don't have to use any live rock at all if you don't want too - it will just take longer to cycle".........?

I dont understand.....care to explain why not using LR will cause a longer cycle.

 

[DKAudio]

This is because it will have nothing to "seed" from. All the live material on the rock will have to develop on its own.

 

[BurntOutReefer]

I think you are confused regarding cycling.....its got nothing to do "seeding".....

 

[TrashBINH]

This is how i see it... hope it helps...
Live rock will start filtering as soon as you put it in the tank because it full of bacteria and stuff and the bacteria will also spread to the base rock. While using only base rock, time is needed to "create" the bacteria before it can start filtering.

 

[DKAudio]

I think you are confused regarding cycling.....its got nothing to do "seeding".....

Getting base rock to become live rock is part of the cycle though. Base rock has nothing to do with filtering because it is not live. Live rock gets rid of ammonia and nitrite because it acts as a filter.

 

[BurntOutReefer]

lol

 

[DKAudio]

lol

Instead of laughing at me why don't you contribute and tell me why I am wrong; I mentioned that I am new to SW and don't know much. All of my knowledge about fish keeping have only been from the years of FW I have done. In FW your media gets BB (beneficial bacteria). This eats Ammonia which produces Nitrite. Another BB eats Nitrite and produces Nitrate. The only way to get rid of Nitrate is by water changes. I was told that SW was the same way in this aspect except the LR holds the BB. A tank is not cycled unless the BB is present to eat harmful chemicals and produce less harmful byproducts which can be removed by varying means.

 

[BurntOutReefer]

The ANN cycle happens regardless of what you have in your tank.
The BB will exist on everything including the aqaurium walls.
LR is NOT needed to cycle a tank. An empty tank with water will cycle just aswell.

"Getting base rock to become live rock is part of the cycle though".
Again, this has nothing to do with the cycle.

Back to your original q. IMO, I would use a 2/1 ratio. 2 base/1 LR. Get some nice premium pieces. In 6 months (or less), all the rock should look the same.

 

[DKAudio]

The ANN cycle happens regardless of what you have in your tank.
The BB will exist on everything including the aqaurium walls.
LR is NOT needed to cycle a tank. An empty tank with water will cycle just aswell.

"Getting base rock to become live rock is part of the cycle though".
Again, this has nothing to do with the cycle.

LR holds way more BB than anything else though, right? The BB on the glass/substrate isn't enough to keep up with even a light bio-load. I was just thinking that to keep up with a stocked tank's bio-load you need matured LR, the reason I included it in the cycling time.

Back to your original q. IMO, I would use a 2/1 ratio. 2 base/1 LR. Get some nice premium pieces. In 6 months (or less), all the rock should look the same.

It is ok to use all base rock though, right? I think I will go with 130lbs of Eco-Rox to save money (still going to be $300 )
If I go that rought, how long would you guess before I can add fish?

I forgot who said this but it is a very respectable member on the board here. He said that even FOWLR tanks should have one coral...
Either green star polyp or green mushrooms. First, what would you recommend. Second, just one? I guess they are very hardy, don't require any special lighting and will tell you something is wrong with the water quality way before the fish react.

This is my plan (double checking since I am new to SW). Add 130lbs of Eco-Rox, run heater, lights, and sump pump (NOT SKIMMER YET). Add a little fish food everyday until Amonia is detected. This means the Amonia eating bacteria will start working. Then let it run its cycle until Nitrite and Amonia are 0 and I get readible Nitrates meaning the tank is cycled. At this point I will start running the skimmer and add one of the coral above. Wait and let the bacteria catch up to the additional bio-load then start adding fish.

Does this sound ok?

What are your thought on my questions/plan above? If you are saying the tank can be cycled while still having base rock, is it ok to add fish?

 

[jbc123]

You still need at least a little live rock, otherwise you won't be adding things to reproduce, like pods and most importantly coralline algae. If you start with a totally sterile tank you may eventually host the bacteria you need (it will take months instead of weeks though) but you have to introduce the other stuff that makes your little world in a bottle function.

 

[DKAudio]

Ah, got ya.

So is 2base/1live the general consensus like BurntOutReefer recommended?

If so I may have to go FW for now, I cannot afford this cost just for LR. I don't have a RODI unit yet either.