shelburn61
New member
I like to look at my tank. Other than electricity, why would you want a reduced photoperiod if you don't have to?
BB Tank: SPS grow fast, but have lost their color?
- Thread starter Travis Savant
- Start date
Chip Douglas
New member
Improved coral health? You keep stating that corals are starving, what is your basis for that statement? Is it just an assumption based on cleanliness of the system, or do you actually have proof that corals are starving in his/your aquarium?
I want to state that I don't have a BB aquarium, but I've done a lot of reading about it, and though my posts may seem argumentative, I'm just looking to get answers to the same questions you are.
DaddyJax
New member
I guess to think of it like anything else, the corals need to have import of nutrients like nitrates. Phosphates are the nutrients that have wreaked havoc on our systems. There has been research and discussion revealing the need for nitrates. BB does not allow for nitrates to develop with the size skimmers we use and relies on the rocks alone to break down nutrients when the sand does this along with the rock much more efficiently and in different stages.I view it as storage much like fat on the body.you need to have a little
. I personally know someone who has a farm that has been running for years with a DSB and no skimmer and no rock and no fuge!! His colors are amazing along growth rate. He feeds heavy and has few fish.
. I personally know someone who has a farm that has been running for years with a DSB and no skimmer and no rock and no fuge!! His colors are amazing along growth rate. He feeds heavy and has few fish.
Chip Douglas
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7242213#post7242213 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DaddyJax
I guess to think of it like anything else, the corals need to have import of nutrients like nitrates. Phosphates are the nutrients that have wreaked havoc on our systems. There has been research and discussion revealing the need for nitrates. BB does not allow for nitrates to develop with the size skimmers we use and relies on the rocks alone to break down nutrients when the sand does this along with the rock much more efficiently and in different stages.I view it as storage much like fat on the body.you need to have a little
BB people, at least the ones that I have talked to, don't claim that DSB's don't work. Their claim is that the DSB controls the aquarium, not the aquarist. With a BB, the aquarist has full control. You will always find tanks with sandbeds that are working and people that support their use, just as you'll find BB tanks that are working with people that support the BB method.
Just to clear something up, BB don't depend on the rocks to break down anything, that's why rocks are cooked to begin with. Detritus is removed by water changes and wet skimming, among other methods.
BB - no sand. The advantage is that we can use stronger currents and remove detritus through mechanical filtration (e.g. skimmer, filter sock,...) instead of having dead zones that collect detritus. Don't think BB implies the use of cooked rocks or vice versa.
Mechanical filtration doesn't remove all the "nutrients". Biological filtration still occurs on the live rock.
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Chip Douglas
New member
No, I don't at all, sorry for the confusion.
Chip Douglas
New member
One thing you can do, so you can still see your tank, is use VHO's through the day, and just run the halides for 2-3 hours. A barebottom user I've talked to uses this schedule:
O3's on at 10am off at 10pm
50/50's on at 11:30am off at 9:30pm
MH on at 5pm off at 7pm.
This schedule has worked for him.
O3's on at 10am off at 10pm
50/50's on at 11:30am off at 9:30pm
MH on at 5pm off at 7pm.
This schedule has worked for him.
MiddletonMark
Premium Member
I agree.
I'm not in disagreement that perhaps less light would be good ... or at least worth trying.
But IME, after time with BB, you can get the tank into a very nutrient limited state. Without importing more, IMO/IME you start to run into problems as the corals get little more than sugars from the zoox - and IMO do better when provided more nutrition.
IMO, this tends to be a bigger deal on smaller BB tanks - where maintenance can be very complete and IMO the tendency is to feed the fish rarely - giving 48 hours [or so] with zero nutrient input. Yet while being nutrient-poor in water quality, most natural reefs have a lot of particulate material - and IMO, when looking for color - it helps to provide the coral something more than the zoox when trying for `optimal growth/color'.
IMO, I like to feed to just below where there is any nutrient accumlation or issues ... but to feed until reaching that point. When looking at some of the Euro-suppliments - they break tanks into a couple stages of nutrient reduction - first with the slow decrease, then they move into more supplimentation/coral-feeding as the tank finally achieves a reduced-nutrient state.
IMO, that is similar to what you have experienced - that until reaching a low-nutrient state the great husbandry + heavy export was doing something good overall for the tank/livestock. But now that nutrients are not hanging around in the system - IMO it's time to adjust, to perhaps consider what nutrient level you would want to maintain.
IMO, given you've proven that you can `clean up' your tank and rid nutrient issues as currently set up - perhaps it's time to see what you can import while keeping the same [or better] results.
Just my take, I would be very gradual and cautious with nutrient addition - and anything else. Don't change everything at once ... but decide what you will experiment with, then give it time to slowly implement - and a month or so to observe longer-term changes in the tank. IMO, if you can see changes in days likely it's too much - aim for a change 2 months from today, let it take that long.
Just a heap of opinion [as the dozen `IMO' suggest
].Best of luck
DaddyJax
New member
I agree completely Mark. My quandary is when do we cut back the time of light/viewing and adding supplements outway the benefit of having a BB! I have undetectable nitrates and po4 and rich colors with a ssb. I also feel that I do control the the tank not my SSB. I don't use the fine grain sand and have my flow lifting anything that goes near my sand up into the overflow. I don't run phosphate remover of any kind either so I believe that husbandry and WC are in order and responsible no matter what kind of substrate you have.
I guess a better question to ask is "what am I trying to achieve by changing my substrate?" There has been a lot of people that ran and sucked out all their sand when someone mentioned having a BB tank and how great it is. Now a lot of people are switching back. I personally don't like the look and believe that it serves a purpose not to mention I love wrasses and jawfish and other sand loving fish.
This of course is my opinion.
I guess a better question to ask is "what am I trying to achieve by changing my substrate?" There has been a lot of people that ran and sucked out all their sand when someone mentioned having a BB tank and how great it is. Now a lot of people are switching back. I personally don't like the look and believe that it serves a purpose not to mention I love wrasses and jawfish and other sand loving fish.
This of course is my opinion.
MiddletonMark
Premium Member
My fairy wrasse has no need of sand 
Chip Douglas
New member
I saw a BB tank once that had a little plastic food container sitting on the bottom full of sand for the wrasses to bury in
onthefly
Getting back into it!
Playing devil's advocate here......how do not know they aren't starving? or How do you know it's too much light?
This whole hobby is anecdotal and after months of trying everything (including dropping my photoperiod down so low that my light came on and went off before I finish an episode of Seinfeld j/k.....or raising my pendent so that it looks like I have a skylight at high noon)......I simply put 1/2 layer of sand in my tank. With the additives and adding fish and increasing the food going in......all of these show small effects, but over time the process continued. ONLY, after adding the sand have things began to reverse and not just in the short term.
BB works....and extremely well! The problem, corals don't live in sterile water.......PERIOD! Perhaps smaller tanks lack the bioload (lets face it I can't put 14 fish in a 20long) or sufficient LR quantities in order to create enough DOC, trace NO3 and PO4, etc.
Remember BB is just one type of system.....
Travis - sorry for the late reply, I'm still running the CVR 10k on an IC.....the perfect bulb IMHO! I prefer it over the P14.
shelburn61
New member
Yeah Chip, I have seen it in my own tank. Proof? No, but it was pretty amazing to see corals that were pretty severely lightened for months darken in only a couple days and start growing again after I started feeding heavily... even with a 250w running 8hrs/day.
People beat each other over the head with "get your nutrients down" cliche so much that people forgot where it came from. This is also the reason people are having to reduce their photoperiods.
The fixation on intense light and reducing nutrients came from the fact that reefers couldn't keep up with the accumulation of organics. Super intense light was a way to compensate for the higher nutrients levels to keep sps from browning out. Now that we can keep up we don't need it anymore.
We may eventually figure out shorter, more intense photoperiods actually produce better growth and color, who knows? I think most people are just reducing photoperiod to compensate for lights that were too intense in the first place.
Travis Savant
New member
Thanks for the replies every one. OTF, from what it sounds like, went through the exact thing that I am going through now. I think I will pick of a bag of sand and see what happens. If it gets worse, I can just suck it back out, no problem.
shelburn61
New member
At the risk of beating a dead horse...
If you just plain like sand go for it, but it isn't necessary and won't necessarily fix your problem. I had this same problem with an ssb.
If you just plain like sand go for it, but it isn't necessary and won't necessarily fix your problem. I had this same problem with an ssb.
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Travis Savant
New member
Yeah, I like sand...now anyways...
Chip Douglas
New member
Sand is just going to trap detritus, the water is going to start to get dirty again, and things will look like they're improving because it will take more light to compensate for what is now a "dirtier" tank. It's a placebo effect, and that's why people who add sand back to their BB systems tell others to do it too. You would get the same result by keeping the tank as a BB and cutting back your photoperiod. If you like what you've read about BB's and want to try one, please cut back your photoperiod to about 4 hours a day for a few weeks and see what kind of results you get before making it a reef with a sandbed again. Right now you're simply burning the corals with too much light, it really is that simple. The tank is only a 20H, the corals can't sit under a 250w 10k DE in a BB system for 8-12 hours or you're going to get bleaching and corals losing a lot of their color.
If you think a 4 hour MH photoperiod doesn't offer you enough time to view your tank, then try supplementing with VHO or T5's on a similar schedule to the one I posted a page back.
If you think a 4 hour MH photoperiod doesn't offer you enough time to view your tank, then try supplementing with VHO or T5's on a similar schedule to the one I posted a page back.
Travis Savant
New member
Eh, what if I switched to T5s? 4x 24w bulbs. A Tek fixture. Would that be enough for the SPS?
