BIO-SEA® Marinemix: THe untold story

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Well, by testing salt formulations that do NOT approximate NSW.

Sure, I understand how you'd do the experiemnts in theory, but in practice you'd need to test every organsim that you care about to set optimal levels for an aquarium that were different than natural seawater.

Surely you cannot use sea urchin embryos or any other single organism to determine the optimal levels of chemicals for every organism. After all, they don't even use some chemicals that other organisms use from the water column. It is well established that different organisms have different abilities to pull certain chemicals out of the water, often varying by orders of magnitude, in addition to the fact that many use totally different chemicals in the first place.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You ask why.
May be its because Crystal Sea Marinemix is closest to NSW and has nothing to do with larval survivability.

Assuming that is actually true (both in fact and as the reason), that's a fine reason. I've not seem many folks express that as their reason, but I admit I cannot read every thread.

 

[Mako]

And the reason that more folks are hooping over the Crystal Sea Marinemix-Bioassay Formula rather than the BioSea Marinemix is because of the statistically insignificant difference in larval survivability?????

Hmm, how do ya figure that it is statistically insignificant? Don't follow that one. I am no expert, by any means, but the numbers looked disparate enough to warrant recognition on my part regardless of which path is chosen to believe as to the cause.

 

[Bomber]

Just some random thoughts on this.

While CS says right on their label that their product does not contain EDTA, for all practical purposes they will have to use some buffer/chelator to make their product work. IO does and that explains the brown precipitate that some people get when they mix it up. EDTA binds iron (and that can be replaced by other metals, Cu, Zn, Mg, Ca, etc) and falls out of solution at the high Ph that salt mixes mix up. EDTA and NTA are the most common chelators (keeps iron in solution) used in algae, etc culture. As a result people are noticing "cloudy" conditions when they mix up this salt, if anything that leads me to believe that the chelator that they are using is still active at this high Ph and keeping something in solution and leaving it bio-available.
I would venture a guess that if you traced the raw components that each company uses back to it's original source, you would find that most (if not all) are buying from the same sources. Either directly or indirectly, and all will have the same suppliers (there just aren't that many) and the same impurities. Even at that, the grades that they are buying would all have to be within the same price range to be competitive and that's regulated as to levels of impurities and what they are.
So unless some company has figured out a way to buy very expensive high purity base chemicals to start with, at a ridiculously low price, debating the contents of these salts is a moot point. They will all have impurities within the allowances of regulation and that can change almost day to day.

Table 1: pH stability of iron chelates in nutrient solutions under practical conditions.



Product Stable in pH range*

Fe-EDTA 1.5-6

Fe-DTPA 1.5-7

Fe-EDDHA 3.5-10

Fe-EDDHMA 3.5-11

Cu-EDTA 2.5-10

Mn-EDTA 3.5-10

Zn-EDTA 2.5-10



Ca-EDTA 5-10

Mg-EDTA 6-10

* Stability could be influenced by the presence of other ions

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hmm, how do ya figure that it is statistically insignificant?

You mean the difference between Crystal Sea Marinemix-Bioassay Formula and BioSea Marinemix ?

When I do a t-test on those two results in Ron's article, I get a p of 0.36. That means there is a 36% chance that the apparent difference between the two is a random event (and that there is no actual difference). Most folks like to see p less than 0.05 (less than a 5% chance of random differences explaning the results) before claiming any significance. I know that Ron agrees with this.

 

[AgentSPS]

I just purchased a box of Crystal Sea Marinemix-Bioassay and am going to try it out for a while. My plan is to gradually introduce it to the tank. I am thinking I will do small water changes and mix my current salt mix (Kent) with the Crystal Sea. With all this debate, I have not hear of anyone suggesting/proposing mixing different salts permanently. Would this not achieve certain desired outcomes IE increased Boron levels etc?

Just a thought...

 

[Brad Gardner]

Here is how to mix from the manufacture:'

apparently some of the bleaching was due to operator error. according to Bob several individuals on this thread who contacted him were mixing the bio-assay based on the IO mixing methods using weight and not a hydrometer or probe to get the correct salinity (although i didn't ask, he said he wasn't going to give any names). bio-assay is drier than IO (which contains more moisture), so therefore those individuals' salinity was much higher since they were adding more salt using the weighing method. infact, Bob said one poster who was complaining about bleaching had a salinity of 1.031. to this end, Bob and MEI have sent out a bunch of lab grade hydrometers free of charge to reefers from this thread who have emailed or called asking questions.

"the mixing directions are on the packaging but up until now not the 'extensive' directions. he did say that a 5% water change every two weeks for 2-3 months, followed by a regular water change after that is the preferred method of introduction. this will be included (apparently because of this thread) in the new packaging that will be released shortly. he will be emailing me the extensive directions, which i will post if anyone is interested, or you can contact MEI and they will email them to you directly. "




here is the whole excerpt:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1346327#post1346327

 

[oz]

I have used both. Either its IO or Crystal Sea Marinemix, the ratio is pretty much the same. Approximately, half a cup of salt per gallon of water or a pound of salt per 4 gallons of water.

Both IO and Crystal Sea MarineMix say to verify and adjust the salinity.

 

[Flanders]

Yeah, well I find it a bit hard to believe that anyone on here would mix up a new batch of salt and add it to their aquarium without testing the salinity. Everyone knows salts don't always mix to the salinity manufacturers claim. I think it's much more likely that aquacraft (that is the manufacturer, right?) is making up any excuse they can think of to explain the bleaching other than the quality of their salt. I base this on the questionable and wild actions, posts and claims of the aquacraft owner on other messageboards.

 

[oz]

Flanders, I agree. Its all a BIG confusion.

Aquacraft is manufacturer of Bio Sea Marinemix.

Crystal Sea Marinemix is a totally different product produced by MEI

Now, which one is aledge to have caused the bleach ?

 

[Brad Gardner]

THIS IS NOT FROM AQUACRAFT. It is Bob from MEI.

 

[ReefRelated]

And the reason that more folks are hooping over the Crystal Sea Marinemix-Bioassay Formula rather than the BioSea Marinemix is because of the statistically insignificant difference in larval survivability?????

Not me..I was hooping over it becuase the very low toxic metal content, availability to me, and of course the price.

 

[ReefRelated]

Hmm, how do ya figure that it is statistically insignificant? Don't follow that one. I am no expert, by any means, but the numbers looked disparate enough to warrant recognition on my part regardless of which path is chosen to believe as to the cause.

My thoughts exactly...BTW I was hooping about this salt before I read that article anyway. I won't lie to you, when I read those numbers, I was imoressed but it deffinately wasn't my reason for starting that 10 page thread on Bio Assay. I was actually directed to that article from that thread.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Just some inconsistencies from the web site for Crystal Sea:

"Offers complete duplication of natural sea water's major, minor, and trace elements"

and again:

"Crystal SeaÃ"šÃ‚® offers complete duplication of natural seawater's major, minor, and trace elements contained in a single stage homogeneous blend. "

followed by

"Calcium and other specific elements have been enhanced to support delicate marine life"

"Dechlorinator added to each batch to ensure instant removal of harmful chlorine from tap water"

"No ammonia, nitrate, phosphate, silicate or E.D.T.A. added"

"Over 70 major and minor elements are included in Crystal SeaÃ"šÃ‚®. Calcium and other specific items are enhanced over natural sea water for reef aquariums. "

So, does it match NSW in all ions? Or is it elevated in some things and deficient in others? Can't have it both ways.


http://www.meisalt.com/Site/Products/crystal.htm

 

[Flanders]

Holy crap. Now I'm really confused. So we've got the Crystal Sea Marine Mix Bioassay manufactured by MEI, the BioSea Marine Mix manufactured by aquacraft? And the two aren't affiliated? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Anyway, I still find it hard to believe that people would mix up new salt and not test the salinity. However, please disregard the last part of my previous statement. Sorry to add to the confusion.

Did anyone complain of bleaching when switching to the BioSea? These names are way too similar. These companies should just merge and give my brain a rest.

 

[ReefRelated]

"Dechlorinator added to each batch to ensure instant removal of harmful chlorine from tap water"

Bio Assay does not have the dechlorinator BTW.

"Did anyone complain of bleaching when switching to the BioSea? These names are way too similar. These companies should just merge and give my brain a rest."

I couldn't agree with you more. It's hard to keep them apart. :mad2:

 

[oz]

Randy,

I agree there's inconsistencies there. It was probably written up by some marketing person. They all exagerate to make their product look/sound superior.

But if you look at the table of Dr. Ron's article of the makeup of the salts. Crystal Sea Marinemix seems to be the closest overall to NSW.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

But if you look at the table of Dr. Ron's article of the makeup of the salts. Crystal Sea Marinemix seems to be the closest overall to NSW.

Yes, that's the impression that you'd get from that table. But Ron's explanation of the results revolves around heavy metals, and so that's what the table lists.

It doesn't list many of the other ions (it lists almost no anions, for example), so it is impossible to know from Ron's table what is in it. Ron says he had a list of ions from the manufacturer. Anyone have that list?

 

[Jimbo327]

Hmm, how do ya figure that it is statistically insignificant?

You mean the difference between Crystal Sea Marinemix-Bioassay Formula and BioSea Marinemix ?

When I do a t-test on those two results in Ron's article, I get a p of 0.36. That means there is a 36% chance that the apparent difference between the two is a random event (and that there is no actual difference). Most folks like to see p less than 0.05 (less than a 5% chance of random differences explaning the results) before claiming any significance. I know that Ron agrees with this.

I think he meant between ratio between Crystal Sea/NSW and IO.

 

[Habib]

Randy:

It doesn't list many of the other ions (it lists almost no anions, for example), so it is impossible to know from Ron's table what is in it. Ron says he had a list of ions from the manufacturer. Anyone have that list?

Here is the list for the Crystal Sea marine mix (NOT Bio-Sea marinemix). I am leaving any comments up to you.