Bring out the BIG guns!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I also must explain that this product is unlike ANYTHING on the market already. It is done using a proprietary process where the Calcium/Carbonate/Magnesium ions are bonded to h2o, all in separate containers. This is above any common chemistry, and will undoubtedly rub a few 'experts' the wrong way. This is Great in fact because it does work.
.

You almost had me believing that you had some idea what you were talking about until I read that. Either you have no idea what the product actually is, or you are intentionally misleading folks with descriptions that might be true, but are only a tiny part of the story.

The only way ions such as calcium and magnesium are bonded to water only is when they are dissolved in water, in which case they really are surrounded by a cage of hydrating water. But equally concentrated in that solution must be negatively charged ions to balance the charge. You deny the presence of these, unless you are implying they are hydroxide, which is the product I mentioned earlier: fine pickling lime and magnesium hydroxide. But in nanoparticles of calcium hydroxide, the calcium ions are not bonded to water, but to hydroxide ion. There is never, ever, any solid or solution of macroscopic dimensions (nanoparticles included) that consists of only positive charges.

I've read a lot of ridiculous claims for chemical products for reefs, but this one is among the strangest.

I hope that there are tons of doubters and haters out there. Don't try if you don't want to, but you will be buying corals from those that do use it soon enough.

Glad to oblige, although I'm not a hater, just a realist and expert chemist who knows you do not have the product you portray.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Just a few follow up questions:

1. Since the method you sell includes something called "Coral Accelerator" (perhaps that is the Iodide, Vitamin C, and other Vitamins, as well as Carbohydrates, Amino Acids and others tghat was written above), and since you recommend that calcium, magnesium and alkalinity be primarily supplemented in other ways, how do you know that the three "bottles" of calcium, magnesium, and alkalinity are doing anything at all? If there really is any increased growth, cannot the effect be from the latter only?

2. Do you have any scientific literature that says corals can take up nanoparticles of any type?

3. Just being nit picky, but none of iodide, vitamins, carbohydrates, or amino acids are trace elements in seawater. So you might want to clean up the wording if posting on educated forums like this one.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Just a few follow up questions:

1. Since the method you sell includes something called "Coral Accelerator" (perhaps that is the Iodide, Vitamin C, and other Vitamins, as well as Carbohydrates, Amino Acids and others that was written above), and since you recommend that calcium, magnesium and alkalinity be primarily supplemented in other ways, how do you know that the three "bottles" of calcium, magnesium, and alkalinity are doing anything at all? If there really is any increased growth, cannot the effect be from the latter only?

2. Do you have any scientific literature that says corals can take up nanoparticles of any type?

3. Just being nit picky, but none of iodide, vitamins, carbohydrates, or amino acids are trace elements in seawater. So you might want to clean up the wording if posting on educated forums like this one.

 

[Habib]

FWIW, my post #14 here above was just sarcasm.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think there could be a dangerous synergy. Like matter and antimatter.

 

[Habib]

I thunk there could be a dangerous synergy. Like matter and antimatter.

It doesn't "matter".

 

[rtparty]

Well, I did like I said and used my store credit to pick up some of this stuff. I tested my water before adding anything and will have those results in my sig soon.

I have a couple observations.

1) All of the liquids are completely clear. Not sure that that matters but I thought the Acceleration part would have some color to it if it was indeed vitamins.

2) When I added the Alkalinity component, there was no clouding. With all of the components it just looked like when you add fresh RO water to the tank. You know that wavy look. (I know there is a name for it but can't remember it for the life of me.)

3) Only the Acceleration component has a slight smell to it. It honestly smells a little like AquaVitro Fuel to me but very very faint. (Yeah, I am weird. I smell things I dose to my tank.)

4) This is the one thing that may be totally anecdotal. About 2-3 minutes after I finished adding everything, my corals were opening to feed. All of LPS put out their feeder tentacles like I added food for my fish but I didn't add any food. I haven't added anything but the stuff. Right now this is going down as coincidental for me.

So let it begin.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

4) This is the one thing that may be totally anecdotal. About 2-3 minutes after I finished adding everything, my corals were opening to feed. All of LPS put out their feeder tentacles like I added food for my fish but I didn't add any food. I haven't added anything but the stuff. Right now this is going down as coincidental for me.

So let it begin.

That doesn't surprise me for something that contains organic matter like vitamins and carbohydrates.

I'm surprised the other solutions are clear. Nanoparticles often scatter light.

 

[billsreef]

4) This is the one thing that may be totally anecdotal. About 2-3 minutes after I finished adding everything, my corals were opening to feed. All of LPS put out their feeder tentacles like I added food for my fish but I didn't add any food. I haven't added anything but the stuff. Right now this is going down as coincidental for me.

I can get the same effect from a mere drop or two of squid oil

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

2) When I added the Alkalinity component, there was no clouding. With all of the components it just looked like when you add fresh RO water to the tank. You know that wavy look. (I know there is a name for it but can't remember it for the life of me.)

I believe that effect is refraction as the interface between areas of different refractive index scatter the light slightly.

 

[rtparty]

I can get the same effect from a mere drop or two of squid oil

Me too. My corals open up whenever I feed the fish.

All I was saying is that something induced my corals. If it was snake oil or vitamins, I don't know. :lolspin:

I am still very skeptical of these supplements. It was a small risk to take but the worst that can happen is they don't work. If they don't work, I am out my store credit.

 

[rtparty]

I believe that effect is refraction as the interface between areas of different refractive index scatter the light slightly.

Refraction! I couldn't think of that word, thanks.

Randy, are there any tests I could perform to maybe see what is in these bottles? I know I could pull out my alk, cal and mg test kits and see if I get a reading but are there any others you know of that are simple to perform?

 

[ReefOn.com]

I will post this that was posted on another forum....just seconds before Ryan can, lol

------------------------------------

I need to clear a few things up. I am no chemist, nor have I tried to mislead anyone in any way. These products work and that is the truth about it. I have just tried to explain it in a way that others can understand. When the phrase, "Pure Calcium, Pure Alkalinity, Pure Magnesium and Coral Accelerant(our trace elements blend)." was used, this is just a description of what we are labeling the bottles with. This is the Product Name we are currently calling it at this point. This does not mean, nor was it ment to be interperated as literal.


My above description of the products was intended to explain the products, as best I can, after many, many meetings with the chemists and then 'translating' it, while at the same time not breaking our non-disclosure agreement. After speaking with the chemist I was informed that there will still be small traces of Sodium, Chloride, and Sulfate in the solutions due to the source of Calcium/Carbonate/Magnesium. I would love for people to test them, and encourage the feedback. I do however ask the question to the expert Chemists out there, If this were just the standard two part, or something like it, how are the levels able to spike, then return to the BASE-LINE so quickly without effecting pH? Buy some and test it, Tell us what you think. The more input we have, the better.

 

[reefgeezer]

Is ReefOn.com a sponsor? It seems like this thread has gone something like this... "Hey, is this new stuff worth a crap?"... "Yes, I agree it's not worth a crap"... "I'll pick up my bottles tomorrow to test the crap in my tank". IMO, there seems to be some promotion going on here.

 

[rtparty]

Is ReefOn.com a sponsor? It seems like this thread has gone something like this... "Hey, is this new stuff worth a crap?"... "Yes, I agree it's not worth a crap"... "I'll pick up my bottles tomorrow to test the crap in my tank". IMO, there seems to be some promotion going on here.

There is no shilling going on here. ReefOn only knew about the thread on here because I quoted Randy on my local forum.

I had store credit that had not been used in months. That is the ONLY reason I got the product. I would have never paid cash for this stuff.

IN NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM DO I RECOMMEND THIS STUFF.

 

[rtparty]

I just want to clarify everything in this post from my side of things.

I do NOT nor have I ever worked for ReefOn. They are a local store to me and I shop there as money permits. I am not affiliated with them in ANY way. Go ahead and read the entire thread. I made no mention of their name at any time. The ONLY reason anyone knows them is because they commented on the thread. I actually plan on them being banned at any time for breaking rules in the UA.

I did not ask them to post here. I asked the experts to debunk the "science" behind this product. They did that for me and I appreciate that. What can not be debunked is the growth seen in ReefOn's display tank. I went into the history of the tank, as I know it, earlier but edited my comment. I do NOT think this product is responsible for the growth but I am trying it for MYSELF so I can back up my claims with real world experience.

I hate snake oil types of products in this hobby because people get burned by companies that can't back up their claims. They then leave the hobby and have a bitter taste in their mouth. I want everyone to enjoy this hobby as much as I do.

I got the product with store credit. It cost me nothing out of pocket. I would have never spent my own fish money on this stuff.

That is my story and my side. If the mods want to delete everything reefon said, I support them to do so.

 

[96p993]

Is ReefOn.com a sponsor? It seems like this thread has gone something like this... "Hey, is this new stuff worth a crap?"... "Yes, I agree it's not worth a crap"... "I'll pick up my bottles tomorrow to test the crap in my tank". IMO, there seems to be some promotion going on here.

:debi:

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I do however ask the question to the expert Chemists out there, If this were just the standard two part, or something like it, how are the levels able to spike, then return to the BASE-LINE so quickly without effecting pH? Buy some and test it, Tell us what you think. The more input we have, the better.

I didn't claim it was a two part. But I can absolutely design a two part that has zero impact on pH. I've published recipes for ones that raise pH and lower pH. A proper ratio of the two will be pH neutral.

 

[Ron Reefman]

Maybe these guys have figured out 'dark matter' and 'dark energy' being that this is an ultra secret high security research lab... maybe they are hooked up with NASA? Or I suppose this could just be snake oil. Try using Occam's razor to figure it out for yourself. If you don't know about Occam's razor, google it. It's a common sense rule that when applied to a situation like this, ends up being right way more often than not. :uzi::reading:

 

[fishflorist]

3) Only the Acceleration component has a slight smell to it. It honestly smells a little like AquaVitro Fuel to me but very very faint. (Yeah, I am weird. I smell things I dose to my tank.)

Smell things is not weird, I taste them. I tasted Zeo AA, BW Amino, Zeo Sponge Power, Zeolifw, VC, water in my tank, vinegar, I tasted every Fish food I am using, and I even tasted the skimmate if you believe......