Bryopsis, Kent Tech M and carbon?

In my personal experience in a total volume of about 240g it was not the final number of "xxxx mag" it is the actual increase of the amount.

If you decide "1800" is the magic number and your tank is already at 1600, then increasing it 200 I don't feel will do anything to kill the bryopsis.

My tank was hovering around 1400 when I started. After talking with others from start-finish numbers it appears to need almost a 30% increase as a rough estimate.

Essentially meaning if you are at 1000mg at the start, I personally feel if you head towards 1400 you should see Tech-M start to work.

It's not the MG that's killing the bryopsis....it's the impurity.
 
Randy's point makes perfect sense to me ; more Tech M equals more of whatever is killing the bryopsis ,if the assumptions about an unique impurity and the efficacy of Tech M as a bryopsis control are correct. and those are big "ifs".

While this thread was not intended by the OP to be a discussion on the Tech M approach generally ,. the testimonial for it offered in post#17 takes us there.

Personally I'm dubious about the whole process. Evidence for it hasn't gone beyond testimonials and those cases where it doesn't erradicate the bryopsis are dismissed as errors in applications or other variables in teh aquarium.

You certainly will not find anything but anecdotal evidence for using Tech M to control bryospis. But you will find a lot of testimonials saying it does work. Based on that reasoning, then, you should doubt the use of Interceptor for Redbugs, as there are only testimonials to support that as well. Some unsuccessful use of Tech M to control bryopsis may be user error, but there could also be Bryopsis species more resistant to whatever trace is killing Bryopsis in those that did have success with it, like myself.

Hundreds have used Tech M to control Bryopsis. Just because there are not scientific studies showing the specifics of why, does not mean it does not work. Many commonly used remedies for pest control in the aquarium have involved using some product for something other than what it was intended.

Interceptor for redbugs, Tech M for Bryopsis, in FW tanks, SeaChem Flourish Excel to control Black Beard Algae (BBA), Fluke Tabs to eliminate GSP, Xenia, and Blue Clove Polyps that have become plagues in Reef Tanks, even Kalk paste on Aiptasia, all used based on other's anecdotal observation. They work, scientifically proven or not.

You will probably find that when the first systemic treatment for AEFWs comes about, it will probably come from the Reef Hobbyist Community, and it will develop based on anecdotal observation, not scientific studies, and it will come from someone using a product for other than it's intended purpose, just like the use of Tech M for Bryopsis came about.

I doubt Kent can tell you the amounts of trace elements in the product much less from batch to batch; nor do they sell this product as a bryopsis control.

Correct. If Kent sold Tech M as an algaecide, they would have a host of EPA and other Government regulations to comply with. Tech M for Bryopsis, like Interceptor for Redbugs, is a use at your own risk type scenario, as it would be using anything for a non specified purpose.


Even if I assume for the sake of argument that an impurity that only harms bryopsis is present ( a large and likely incorrect assumption assumption) ; how constant would it be from batch to batch.?

I've used Tech M to supplement magnesium in the past when I had bryopsis issues abut 5 years ago without any discernible effect.

The whole idea of overdosing magnesium in pursuit of some unidentified impurity toxic to bryopsis, while hoping the ethal element is there at some level of consistency and won't harm any other living thing does not appeal to me.

Keeping PO4 low will cause bryopsis to wane,ime. Sometimes it takes time( weeks to months) for rock leaching PO4 to exhaust though.

The concentration of the trace that kills Bryopsis in Tech M certainly could vary from batch to batch. I was not arguing that point. That may where some of the unsuccessful attempts to use it for Bryopsis come from.

Anyone's personal preference to use or not use a product for whatever purpose is a choice, but the only supporting evidence being anecdotal observation/testimonials does not mean a particular method does not work. Sometimes, that is all we have in this hobby.
 
In my personal experience in a total volume of about 240g it was not the final number of "xxxx mag" it is the actual increase of the amount.

If you decide "1800" is the magic number and your tank is already at 1600, then increasing it 200 I don't feel will do anything to kill the bryopsis.

My tank was hovering around 1400 when I started. After talking with others from start-finish numbers it appears to need almost a 30% increase as a rough estimate.

Essentially meaning if you are at 1000mg at the start, I personally feel if you head towards 1400 you should see Tech-M start to work.

It's not the MG that's killing the bryopsis....it's the impurity.

So if your tank was hovering at 1400, then a 30% increase over 1400 would put you at 1820.

Most folks in my local club that have had success using Tech M for Bryopsis have raised their mag levels to 1600-1800 and kept it there for two weeks. I used the upper end of the range just to be sure.

Using an 1800 mag level as a benchmark is not written in stone. People have had success at lower ranges. But it seems that higher magnesium levels in a reef are not a huge risk to corals or fish short term. At 1800 all I had happen, besides the death of all the bryopsis in my 400 gallon system, was a slight lightening of some montiporas that quickly recovered, and some sedated acting Turbo snails. Didn't lose anything else, so the collateral damage for me was minimal.
 
Just a FYI, we DO know the active ingredient of Interceptor. and it was made to kill worms in dogs .... doctors and vets made interceptor to do what is does.

kalk on aiptasia and other examples all have scientific background and proof as well :)
 
So if your tank was hovering at 1400, then a 30% increase over 1400 would put you at 1820.

Most folks in my local club that have had success using Tech M for Bryopsis have raised their mag levels to 1600-1800 and kept it there for two weeks. I used the upper end of the range just to be sure.

Using an 1800 mag level as a benchmark is not written in stone. People have had success at lower ranges. But it seems that higher magnesium levels in a reef are not a huge risk to corals or fish short term. At 1800 all I had happen, besides the death of all the bryopsis in my 400 gallon system, was a slight lightening of some montiporas that quickly recovered, and some sedated acting Turbo snails. Didn't lose anything else, so the collateral damage for me was minimal.

I believe the reason the 1800 mag level is even discussed is because it's a general figure that is going to be an obvious increase for most normally run tanks.

I believe most cases that didn't work with Tech-M revolve soley around user error. Being either, misidentifcation or not using enough tech-m or long enough. I was baffled by the amounts I went through and began feeling like I was performing water changes with magnesium coming out a 25$ 1 gallon bottles.
 
We haven't got a full tank shot of the problem yet it might be possible to not have to dose the whole tank. A huge number of 'bryopsis on my frag' is nothing but a spot kill with no follow up, until the next re import!
 
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Just a FYI, we DO know the active ingredient of Interceptor. and it was made to kill worms in dogs .... doctors and vets made interceptor to do what is does.

kalk on aiptasia and other examples all have scientific background and proof as well :)

Yes, but that really has nothing to do with Tech M and bryopsis. Ivermectin is used in animals as a deworming agent, not an intended treatment against redbugs, a crustacean. Interceptor's effect on Redbugs came about as a result of anecdotal observation, not scientific studies, and it came from within the Reef Hobby Community, originated by Dustin Dorton at ORA.

And we do know the traces in Tech M, we just don't know which one of them kills the bryopsis.

And no, there are no scientific studies about Kalk paste killing aiptasia. People tried it and observed that it worked, nothing more than than anecdotal observation and testimonials, just like Tech M and Bryopsis. If you are aware of some, please cite them for me. I have never seen any.:)
 
I love anecdote arguments. You can amass a thousand pest cures over and over and its never good enough for some

I feel that every advancement in home reefing started as a darn nice anec lol but really
 
I love anecdote arguments. You can amass a thousand pest cures over and over and its never good enough for some

I feel that every advancement in home reefing started as a darn nice anec lol but really

I totally agree with you. What gets me are the "if you can't prove it scientifically then it doesn't work or exist" die hards. It would be nice if everything that works in a reef tank were based on scientific sudies, but that is just not the practical reality of the hobby.
 
Just a FYI, we DO know the active ingredient of Interceptor. and it was made to kill worms in dogs .... doctors and vets made interceptor to do what is does.

kalk on aiptasia and other examples all have scientific background and proof as well :)

Exactly . Much different than chasing a "mystery toxin" in a product with likely variabiliy. I know what's in them and how they work to some extent.. I can see red bugs fall off when dipped. I can also watch my shrimp, pods, and other crustaceans die it I chose to put it in my tank.I know why calcium hydroxide kills aiptasia.

I agree learning as we go via anecdotal information is important with some basis. The idea of increasing magnesium to take advantage of a mystery impurity in a certain product without a clue about what it is and how much is in it from batch to batch is not for me.
I remain dubious.


There are alternatives for bryopsis control , ie, controlling inorganic phosphate.
The argument that goes: if it didn't work for you; you did it wrong is ,well.....

Back to the OPs question,this hijack has gone on long enough:

I don't think anyone can answer the question about granualted activated carbon because there is no way to know if or which element in a Tech M batch is actually effecting the bryopsis directly or indirectly , and; if so then without knowing what it is and it's hydrophobic or hydrophylic tendencies ; the mystery elements affinity for gac is unknowable .
 
Yes, but that really has nothing to do with Tech M and bryopsis. Ivermectin is used in animals as a deworming agent, not an intended treatment against redbugs, a crustacean. Interceptor's effect on Redbugs came about as a result of anecdotal observation, not scientific studies, and it came from within the Reef Hobby Community, originated by Dustin Dorton at ORA.

And we do know the traces in Tech M, we just don't know which one of them kills the bryopsis.

And no, there are no scientific studies about Kalk paste killing aiptasia. People tried it and observed that it worked, nothing more than than anecdotal observation and testimonials, just like Tech M and Bryopsis. If you are aware of some, please cite them for me. I have never seen any.:)

lol

you really think there is no explanation for why kalk kills everything ? not just aiptasia, but inject kalk into palys they die, inject it to zoas, they die, you can review Randy's article on kalk and lime water for explanation on what it does when added to water :)

....

I am not arguing nor do I want to be part of this arguement, but just pointing out, that there is scientific reasoning behind all that you used as examples :) interceptor, kalk and so on.
 
I totally agree with you. What gets me are the "if you can't prove it scientifically then it doesn't work or exist" die hards. It would be nice if everything that works in a reef tank were based on scientific sudies, but that is just not the practical reality of the hobby.

as an engineer, I do not like this statement.

Science, including Physicas and Chemistry can explain all.

everything that happens in a reef tank [lets face it, in a sea water container] can be explained by chemistry. [Except why my clown fish are so cute lol no explanation for that :) ]


I am more of a ""if you can't prove it scientifically then we need to dig deeper and try harder to look for a proof or a reason" type of guy,
dont get me wrong ! I am not saying your experience is wrong :) just saying the correct way to go ahead is to find why, rather than coming up with magical number for MG concentration ... or ...
 
lol

you really think there is no explanation for why kalk kills everything ? not just aiptasia, but inject kalk into palys they die, inject it to zoas, they die, you can review Randy's article on kalk and lime water for explanation on what it does when added to water :)

....

I am not arguing nor do I want to be part of this arguement, but just pointing out, that there is scientific reasoning behind all that you used as examples :) interceptor, kalk and so on.

A strong base like kalk will kill living tissue, no problem there. At least one of the Tech M traces has algaecidal properties I am aware of, ionic copper. I've always thought that was the effective ingredient. Minute additions from the Tech M that raise the tank copper level to higher than NSW levels to affect bryopsis, but less than toxic levels for corals. Just a guess, however.

I discussed Tech M with Sanjay Joshi at one of our Club's events in 2011 where he was our Keynote Speaker, and he told me he thought the trace that killed the bryopsis in Tech M was Lithium, however I don't know why he thought this was the one. He had many people wanting to talk to him that day.

as an engineer, I do not like this statement.

Science, including Physicas and Chemistry can explain all.

everything that happens in a reef tank [lets face it, in a sea water container] can be explained by chemistry. [Except why my clown fish are so cute lol no explanation for that :) ]


I am more of a ""if you can't prove it scientifically then we need to dig deeper and try harder to look for a proof or a reason" type of guy,
dont get me wrong ! I am not saying your experience is wrong :) just saying the correct way to go ahead is to find why, rather than coming up with magical number for MG concentration ... or ...

Understood, but the practical reality is that this will not take place in the reef hobby because there will not be money for it for pure scientific research to find out why or dig deeper, unless it is funded by a company wanting to make a dollar from a product based on the results.

Currently, all hobbyists have for bryopsis control is what they come up with themselves and share with their fellows, among them Tech M, and whatever else folks have found to work, like inorganic phosphate control that tmz mentioned. Then again, does one person's method, like inorganic phosphate control, simply reduce the amount of bryopsis in a system, or does it eliminate it completely? Tech M eliminates it. It does not control it. It kills it all and it doesn't come back. At least IME using Tech M, it did. Been gone from my system for over two years now.

Everyone can decide for themselves what Bryopsis control methods to use or not use for whatever reasons they want, but there are those that will try a method they see others use and have success with instead of suffering an algae infestation that can ruin a reef tank, even though it is not proven scientifically. It may not be proper per your standards, but Tech M has saved many reefs from being overrun by bryopsis, including my own.
 
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Dave did you or the people you know that had success with this method, suspend the use of carbon in a filter or reactor while dosing the Kent Tech M? And thanks to you and all who responded!

Lynn,
When I successfully used Tech M to eliminate rid bryopsis, I discontinued the use of carbon in case whatever it was that was killing the bryopsis could get removed by the carbon.

Not that 1800 is the "magic number" or anything, but since I chose that mag concentration as my target for Tech M treatment, I made up for not using carbon by doing increased water changes. But I made sure my water change water magnesium was at the same 1800 level (adjusted with Tech M) as the tank water before I added it.
 
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So I have been doing this for a few days now. Obviously do not expect immediate results I have no removed any filtration yet. I have noticed my poly filter starting to turn a reddish color. Red according to them indicates the presence of aluminum. Is it possible there is an impurity of aluminum in the kent tech-m that kills the bryopsis. I lack the proper tools to actually test that theory but it just made me think about it. I am going to remove the poly filter and do a water change and redo the mag dosing and see if that has a different affect because the first day when i dos'ed the kent tech-m and directly hit the bryopsis with the stuff those spots turned white for a day or so.
 
So I have been doing this for a few days now. Obviously do not expect immediate results I have no removed any filtration yet. I have noticed my poly filter starting to turn a reddish color. Red according to them indicates the presence of aluminum. Is it possible there is an impurity of aluminum in the kent tech-m that kills the bryopsis. I lack the proper tools to actually test that theory but it just made me think about it. I am going to remove the poly filter and do a water change and redo the mag dosing and see if that has a different affect because the first day when i dos'ed the kent tech-m and directly hit the bryopsis with the stuff those spots turned white for a day or so.

I would definitely remove the poly filter if you are treating bryopsis with Tech M. The poly filter could remove whatever trace is affecting the bryopsis. I would not want to chance it myself. Tech M is too expensive, and I think poly filters remove some metals, which are some of the traces in Tech M.
 
I want to see what happened...however i think it is removing te impurity that kills it. Was wroth the experiment to me i have a small tank. It us not going to break the bank on kent tech-m.
 
My experience with Tech M

The first time I did it for two weeks per Dave's instructions and within 24 hours putting my Rox carbon back on line, the deteriorating fern like algae starting making a comeback.

My second time, I went with 59 days...mag eventually was up to 2200..

Algae was 90% gone, the remaining 10% was wilted, looking like 1/2 life....

Again, after a "normal water change" (I was adding tech m previously to change water) and adding ROX Carbon back on, the algae started to rebound.

That's when I went with H2O2.

Before I started tech m, there were many success stories that I researched.


I'm thinking other factors may contribute to the success such as the exact species, PH, Alk, etc

This hobby is full of anecdotal evidence, are you kidding?

(especially when it pertains to issues, diseases, stn, rtn, bacteria, ICH, etc.)

I run an ULNS, btw. Lol
 
ok here is a question I have, specially for Dave as you are more updated on this.

the tanks that have bryopsis, and it is solved using tech M, do they start off with normal range MG concentration ? or lower than normal ?
could it be that DROP in MG is causing its growth ?

I had it in one of my tanks I think about 6 months ago, for a short period, tested everything,mg was at 1050, raised it to 1300 and bryopsis was gone the day after [it started dying and my tangs started eating it] just wondering if this is the case with others or not. I didnt put this case as "treated by tech M" as I think low MG was causing it.


mysterybox ..... bryopsis growth is a good sign that you do not have an Ultra Low Nutrition System. not that there is anything wrong with it, but that term is used tooo often, in wrong places. ULNS with algae, is like an anorexic with a fat belly :)
 
mysterybox ..... bryopsis growth is a good sign that you do not have an Ultra Low Nutrition System. not that there is anything wrong with it, but that term is used tooo often, in wrong places. ULNS with algae, is like an anorexic with a fat belly :)

albeit I did overfeed during a month or two due to a leopard wrasse that was recoverying (fully too), my phates (DD Merck, HACH) are below 0.028 and trates are below 0.5 (tropic Marin, Elos).

I do believe It's been noted in many reefers tanks that some macro continue to grow in ULNS, anecdotally, of course.
 
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