reef / aholic
New member
DeltecRules kind of ironic!!!
Bubble King & "Mini" Bubble King Skimmers Coming Soon - New Lower Pricing!
- Thread starter Jeremy B.
- Start date
Just an update with this.... Klaus does not want anyone to think that he is ignoring them. His English is not the best, as he is still learning, and he'd rather refrain from trouble shooting via the boards / email as it would just be too hard at this point. Now, if you speak German, that's a different story! 
jnb
Premium Member
mini 160 hum
mini 160 hum
Has anyone any thoughts as to what needs tweaking to eliminate motor hum? I gently lifted the skimmer while in operation a tiny bit and it still hums so it is not something in my sump vibrating. It was just installed and I had the water level real high playing at first and the hum was not there until I settled down and kept the water/foam margin at the black line.
funny too - if you put your hand over the muffler top tube, the foam rises quickly - you would think it would shut off air and have less uprising - curious
Otherwise, I installed it 5:30 PM yesterday and this was what was happening at 8 this morning with the water/foam line on the black line, in 8 inches of water - I am pretty happy as this is the fastest any of my skimmers have shown break in is imminent
mini 160 hum
Has anyone any thoughts as to what needs tweaking to eliminate motor hum? I gently lifted the skimmer while in operation a tiny bit and it still hums so it is not something in my sump vibrating. It was just installed and I had the water level real high playing at first and the hum was not there until I settled down and kept the water/foam margin at the black line.
funny too - if you put your hand over the muffler top tube, the foam rises quickly - you would think it would shut off air and have less uprising - curious
Otherwise, I installed it 5:30 PM yesterday and this was what was happening at 8 this morning with the water/foam line on the black line, in 8 inches of water - I am pretty happy as this is the fastest any of my skimmers have shown break in is imminent
jnb - I am running my 160 water level right at the seam where the collection cup sets. This produces a really nasty gunk very quickly on the riser, with a decent amount of coffee colored liquid in the cup.
On another note, if you have this unit in a sump that fluctuates the water level you will never be able to get the skimmer dialed in, and it will hardly produce anything at all. The Mini's need to be in a sump compartment that has no fluctuation.
On another note, if you have this unit in a sump that fluctuates the water level you will never be able to get the skimmer dialed in, and it will hardly produce anything at all. The Mini's need to be in a sump compartment that has no fluctuation.
jnb
Premium Member
ok - well, just so you understand - I am happy with what it has shown so far and I didn't want to leave it on its first day unbabysitted while it further breaks in to find overflow - I'll ramp it up a bit tonight - my sump water is absolutely always 100% stable unless the electricity quits
i was more concerned about the hum and curious about the rising bubbles when I put my finger over the air pipe.
i was more concerned about the hum and curious about the rising bubbles when I put my finger over the air pipe.
Do you only get the hum when you put your finger over the air pipe?
Internal skimmers are a little different than recirc skimmers. When you put your finger over the venturi on a recirc skimmer, the water level will fall. When you plug the venturi on an internal skimmer, the bubbles will cut off, but the water level will rise. This is because the the internal skimmer is fed by the same pump that is doing the skimming. When you plug take the air out of the equation, the pump actually pushed more water, which is why you're seeing an increase in water level. When you inject the air back in, the air volume takes up a lot of water volume that used to be there, thus reducing the overall water flow of the skimmer. ASM's, Ocotopus, EuroReef's, H&S, Bubble Master, etc, will do the same thing. HTH!
Internal skimmers are a little different than recirc skimmers. When you put your finger over the venturi on a recirc skimmer, the water level will fall. When you plug the venturi on an internal skimmer, the bubbles will cut off, but the water level will rise. This is because the the internal skimmer is fed by the same pump that is doing the skimming. When you plug take the air out of the equation, the pump actually pushed more water, which is why you're seeing an increase in water level. When you inject the air back in, the air volume takes up a lot of water volume that used to be there, thus reducing the overall water flow of the skimmer. ASM's, Ocotopus, EuroReef's, H&S, Bubble Master, etc, will do the same thing. HTH!
jtarmitage
Active member
OT: I may be naive, and this may be a stupid question, but indulge me. What the heck does 'HTH' stand for? I've seen it used but don't have a clue.
Coralfreak
Premium Member
HTH = Hope this helps
jtarmitage
Active member
AH! That makes too much sense. Thank you for enlightening me Coralfreak.
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
That is true in this case... but not for all recirc vs. single-pass skimmers. Usually, yes, when you take the air away from a single-pass skimmer, the water level will rise... IF its internal level is regulated by a valve on the outlet. If you use a telescoping standpipe, you might get some rising, but at least the outlet can 'self adjust' and the water level wont rise as much. Thats why I will never buy another skimmer with a valve on the outlet...too hard to regulate the water level, and even on a recirc they are too easy to overflow. The last one I got, I ended up ripping off the standpipe and making a telescoping standpipe for it... just like Klaus has on the deluxe line. Havent had a problem since.
A different skimmer that I have on the way that uses the same method as these minis, and will most likely end up losing its 'valve adjusted' outlet as well as soon as I figure out which compression drain adapter will work on it.
Is the outlet on these skimmers a standard US size? Im sure you could convert the outlet to being a telescoping one if you have overflow problems. Then the sump level doesnt have to be so accurate either.
Travis
10 and over club
Actually Hahn, the mechanics are the same with the telescoping outlets. At least they are on my BK anyways. Plug the air inlet and the water level rises, plain and simple. This is also noticable as salt creep gradually builds up in the venturi. 9 times out of 10, if the water level has risen in my skimmer or I am getting a wetter skimmate than before, I just need to run some hot water through the venturi.
Travis is correct, as my first statement said. If you plug the air on any internal skimmer that uses the same pump to feed and power the skimmer, then the water level will rise, period. It's irrelevant as to wether it is using a ball valve, gate valve, telescopoing pipe or wedge pipe on the outlet. I should note that this is definitely the case with the needlewheel venturi type skimmers. I'm not referring to spray injection, beckett, etc.
Ginzo
New member
I can't stop saying good things about my BK Mini 160, it's been skimming like a king since day 1. Hell, I didn't even have a break-in period. It just started skimming when I put it in my sump.
It does require some maintenance, as like Jeremy says, it requires a constant water level. I raised my water level to about 8-8.5" and it's been skimming great. I empty the collection cup about every 2 days, with about 2-3" of dark brown-green skimmate..that smells very very bad ! The best part, is the cleaning, it's soo easy with this skimmer. Just pick-up the collection cup, and it's easy to clean-out. Once cleaned, I can expect the next day to already have about 1-2" of the same dark-green skimmate.
I've set my water level to about the same height as the water level line or a little lower and it works great !
Happy BK owner !
It does require some maintenance, as like Jeremy says, it requires a constant water level. I raised my water level to about 8-8.5" and it's been skimming great. I empty the collection cup about every 2 days, with about 2-3" of dark brown-green skimmate..that smells very very bad ! The best part, is the cleaning, it's soo easy with this skimmer. Just pick-up the collection cup, and it's easy to clean-out. Once cleaned, I can expect the next day to already have about 1-2" of the same dark-green skimmate.
I've set my water level to about the same height as the water level line or a little lower and it works great !
Happy BK owner !
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
You might want to rethink that guys. Sure, if the throughput of water is raised on either system, the water will rise, but a gate valve will overflow where a standpipe will not.
A gate valve maintains water level by regulating the flow by the pressure at depth. If the water level rises in a gate controlled body of water, sure, the pressure will increase on that gate and the flow will increase... but it isnt proportional. It takes a huge increase in pressure to increase the flow. So your water level can rise many inches before a new equilibrium is achieved.
With a standpipe, as the water rises, the actual opening gets larger as well. When the water is lower flow, it just takes up less area of the outlet, but when it rises, it can take up more of the pipe. A standpipe doesnt depend on the pressure to regulate flow.
Lets put it this way... lets say you increase the flow in a skimmer that is gate controlled... it can easily overflow. If you increase the flow through a standpipe regulated skimmer, sure, the water may rise a little... like an inch or so... but then it will stop.
Its kind of common sense guys... if you fill a bucket with water at a fixed rate, and then you poke a hole in the bottom to let water exit the bottom at the same rate... sure, it works. If you increase the rate though, the water will rise until the pressure allows the flow through that hole in the bottom to match. OTOH, if you dont poke a hole in the bottom of the bucket, and just let it overflow from the top, its not like increasing the rate is going to cause the water level to rise... maybe a fraction of an inch or something so the flow over the lip can equalize... but you get what I mean. The only way a standpipe regulated skimmer can overflow is if the pipe diameter relative to the throughput is too small... then it is like a valve/restriction.
So the type of valve/outlet is very important... and, with respect to all skimmers the same, not just needlewheels, becketts, spray injection, etc. They all have throughputs and water levels that need to be maintained. Adjustable standpipes are just the best option. Even if you maintain the water level in your sump, make sure the venturi isnt blocked, etc... the throughput of a skimmer pump, esp with a needlewheel because its asperating, is still going to depend on the barometric pressure. You may have a gate controlled skimmer that is fine for weeks, but then when a storm moves in... overflow!
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I'm not going to get into splitting hairs here. However, what I can tell you is that I can make just about any needlewheel / venturi skimmer that is an internal style overflow just by completely blocking the air line. I currently have the following internal skimmers running about 100' from me right now, and it just happened....
Octopus
EuroReef
ASM
Bubble King
Bubble Master
The standpipe skimmers such as the first three vary a heck of a lot more than just 1", and they will overflow like crazy when the venturi line is blocked.
Octopus
EuroReef
ASM
Bubble King
Bubble Master
The standpipe skimmers such as the first three vary a heck of a lot more than just 1", and they will overflow like crazy when the venturi line is blocked.
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
Then the standpipes are too restrictive for the potential throughput.
Fliger
New member
I don't really know much about internals - and don't even know if this is relevant :lol: but this is true. On recirc pumps - as you restrict air, the water volume increases. Pumps are made to push water - so you take an Eheim that might push 950GPH, inject air and it takes the place of water. The net result of more air is less turbulence since the pump isn't pushing as much water. Which is why say a Deltec/H&S will look more "full" when actually the air is decreased. There is a great post by Wolfgang regarding this years ago. Still, even with less air - some believe that filling the body with less air will actually skim better due to dwell time. I never found that to be the case, since it also promotes more turbulence and less air. On the Deltecs, even with the air valve at 12 o'clock - its still somewhat restricting the air, IIRC the Eheim on the AP702 was ~925LPH and about 800 with 12 o'clock. I just took the air taps off, it worked just as well with the taps off - although the skimmer didn't appear to look as full.
I hope that was relevant. If not ... never mind. :lol:
Here is a very informative old thread
ostrow
It's Dr. Goodluck Himself
I just tested my Bubblemaster 250, and I tested with the ASM G5 I had before many times.
On both skimmers, I have NEVER seen ANY difference between gate valve or standpipe on this issue, whatsoever. Cover the air intake, boom, water rises and overflow. Gate valve, standpipe, equally true and nearly equally quickly.
Why the opening would get larger with a standpipe as the water rises is beyond me, unless you have some weird funnel shaped riser, which I have never seen. The opening isize does not change.
On both skimmers, I have NEVER seen ANY difference between gate valve or standpipe on this issue, whatsoever. Cover the air intake, boom, water rises and overflow. Gate valve, standpipe, equally true and nearly equally quickly.
Why the opening would get larger with a standpipe as the water rises is beyond me, unless you have some weird funnel shaped riser, which I have never seen. The opening isize does not change.
Zoom
Premium Member
The standpipe is not restricted at all if you have a 1 1/2" standpipe and you running let say 300GPH if you pinch the air hose you will get more water in the skimmer now the water will rise up in the skimmer , more water pressure, more water more water is now coming out from the standpipe .....You see you move the standpipe up to adjust the water height in the skimmer you do not restrict the water buy a valve ,gate valve and other thing you use to restrict the water. hahnmeister is correct on this one
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
Thanks zoom. Its not that hard to put together... I thought my bucket example would clear it up enough.
The standpipe doesnt have to be a funnel shape... if you have 300gph flowing through a 2" vertical hole, it will only rise to about 1/2" of that 2"... the rest is air. If you increase that flow to 900gph, the level of the water in the exit pipe might rise up to about 1", or half way in the pipe. Just like overflowing a bucket... sure, if you pump more water into the bucket the water level will rise... maybe 1/4" or so to compensate, but its not going to rise 3" or something! This is just like when you increase the rate of flow going into your overflows... if the overflow is very long, you can increase the water flow and the water level might rise a fraction of an inch... but thats it. If you are using a 1" bulkhead for your overflow, and you raise the water flow... then the water has to rise even more to equalize the pressure and flow through that smaller opening. If you use a standpipe outlet and it still overflows, it means the pipe diameter is too small. Small pipe will restrict the flow because the faster the water travels through a smaller pipe... the more the pressure drops (a venturi). If you increase the standpipe diameter, or use more standpipes, the problem is solved.
As for the deltecs... the reason they are best when dialed back a bit is because the 2200v versions are 50hz, and our versions are 60hz. The pumps run 20% faster here than there... and the result is 20% more air intake and a good deal more water turbulence. EU deltecs get about 750lph of air through each eheim, and US ones get 900lph. The solution to restrict the air more helps keep the skimmer cup from overflowing, as too much air through a small neck increases the frequency of overflows... like an ER RC750 or 1000. But the downside is that each eheim which is restricted back down to 750lph of water is pulling about 30% more water than the EU conterparts, so the water turbulence in the skimmer is worse. So the solution is to either make a more restrictive venturi, or cut pins on the needlewheel. These solutions cause the RMS wattage of the pump to drop, but the real wattage increases, the power factor goes down, the pump efficiency drops, the pumps heat up more, and calcium deposits build up faster. Its a nasty cycle. But it doesnt have alot to do with the standpipes... they are recirculating after all, so whatever water the pump puts out, its taking in from the same static body.
One cool thing about the Red Dragons is that if they are anything like the pumps they are based on, they have built in power factor correction... so redesigning the US versions to the EU ones is alot easier. Otherwise, every EU designed skimmer should just be redesigned 20% larger in volume for the US to match the pumps better.
The standpipe doesnt have to be a funnel shape... if you have 300gph flowing through a 2" vertical hole, it will only rise to about 1/2" of that 2"... the rest is air. If you increase that flow to 900gph, the level of the water in the exit pipe might rise up to about 1", or half way in the pipe. Just like overflowing a bucket... sure, if you pump more water into the bucket the water level will rise... maybe 1/4" or so to compensate, but its not going to rise 3" or something! This is just like when you increase the rate of flow going into your overflows... if the overflow is very long, you can increase the water flow and the water level might rise a fraction of an inch... but thats it. If you are using a 1" bulkhead for your overflow, and you raise the water flow... then the water has to rise even more to equalize the pressure and flow through that smaller opening. If you use a standpipe outlet and it still overflows, it means the pipe diameter is too small. Small pipe will restrict the flow because the faster the water travels through a smaller pipe... the more the pressure drops (a venturi). If you increase the standpipe diameter, or use more standpipes, the problem is solved.
As for the deltecs... the reason they are best when dialed back a bit is because the 2200v versions are 50hz, and our versions are 60hz. The pumps run 20% faster here than there... and the result is 20% more air intake and a good deal more water turbulence. EU deltecs get about 750lph of air through each eheim, and US ones get 900lph. The solution to restrict the air more helps keep the skimmer cup from overflowing, as too much air through a small neck increases the frequency of overflows... like an ER RC750 or 1000. But the downside is that each eheim which is restricted back down to 750lph of water is pulling about 30% more water than the EU conterparts, so the water turbulence in the skimmer is worse. So the solution is to either make a more restrictive venturi, or cut pins on the needlewheel. These solutions cause the RMS wattage of the pump to drop, but the real wattage increases, the power factor goes down, the pump efficiency drops, the pumps heat up more, and calcium deposits build up faster. Its a nasty cycle. But it doesnt have alot to do with the standpipes... they are recirculating after all, so whatever water the pump puts out, its taking in from the same static body.
One cool thing about the Red Dragons is that if they are anything like the pumps they are based on, they have built in power factor correction... so redesigning the US versions to the EU ones is alot easier. Otherwise, every EU designed skimmer should just be redesigned 20% larger in volume for the US to match the pumps better.
