Buffalo Frag Swap at A Reef Creation 3/27/10

I would not try to bring anything across without declaring it. I believe you need a CITES (Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species)permit for each time you move coral over the international boundry . Paper work, border inspection and a fee in the $400 range is my understanding.
 
l/f frag of Acropora suharsonoi


this might lure me to the meet :)
I have a new one(about a month in my tank) . It was pale after shipping but is now a nice pinkish with neon green at the tips. I like it as is but expect it may darken up some..I'm hoping to get pictures of tank and livestock up soon.
 
I think we can all agree that it isn't a good idea to bring corals over International borders.

With that being said, any sellers feel free to post lists and/or pictures of livestock that you plan to sell, both here and on fragswapper! :)
 
I found this on the US Customs and border patrol website.


https://help.cbp.gov/cgi-bin/custom...XJjaF90ZXh0PWxpdmUgZmlzaA!!&p_li=&p_topview=1




" Non-endangered or injurious species of Aquarium fish may generally be imported for personal use through authorized Fish and Wildlife ports of entry, commercial importers must obtain FWS permits. For more information, please call 1-800-344-WILD or visit their web site at FWS.GOV."


Not sure if it pertains to corals too but it sounds like as long as its not listed as endangered your ok, comercial importers excepted.

Tim
 
Next question is If your bringing a bunch of frags to sell at the swap are you a comercial importer?

Tim
 
make no mistake about it

make no mistake about it

transporting corals across the international border requires special (and rather expensive) permits. This isn't a new development.
 
Good Evening!
I’ve never tried to bring any corals into the US, but going back into Canada I declare everything accurately and the price I paid. I usually have around $100.00 - $150.00 worth and never get sent in for duty or told I couldn’t bring corals, fish or inverts in. One time I had a little over $800.00 worth and I had to pay about $130.00 for duty. I haven’t found a really notable Canadian LFS yet so we visit the USA. We now routinely travel the Buffalo to Rochester corridor. Anything up to two hours out of Buffalo is just a short road trip. We’re going to check out the Toronto area soon just to see what is up that way, we’ll let you know!
Dave
IME a lot of custom agents (on both sides) aren't fully aware of all the details of the law. (Or they pretend not to know. Or the laws are so rapidly changing they can't keep up with them.)
In any event transporting corals across the international border without proper permits is a risk some might not choose to take.

Did you ever visit the reef store in Oakville Mall?
 
Hi Gary!

No I haven't visited the Oakville Mall yet. That will be a trip we'll take soon. I have been querying online for marine/fish/aquarium stores in the Toronto area and not much has come up. But, once we get a list of a few places we'll make a trip and check them out. There is one place we found "Oakville Marine Gallery" that has a store front with regular hours. A few other places were home based businesses by appointment. I'm more comfortable "shopping" in a regular store where I may or may not decide to purchase something as opposed to making an appointment in someone’s home and then feeling like I "now need to buy something".

Regarding the border; this is third party - but I was told by a US marine store owner that they have imported from Canada and the issue was not the corals but the entry of commercial goods (as opposed to goods for personal use) into the US required the usual customs entry procedures that any other commercial endeavour would be required to fulfill. In other words a documented customs entry for the goods and the required duties and taxes owing. (Pay your toll to the troll!) The documentation may require the completion of import permits as well, but that is just usual custom procedure and not difficult. Import permits are used by governments for the statistical collection of “balance of trade” information and a few other reasons that really make no sense to most of us, but required none the less. Many items that we purchase at our local grocery stores, for example; coffee, require import permits. Steel requires an import permit. The list is long and the permit is a very simple form to complete. It’s just life at the border and once you do it you realize how simple it actually is. But personal importation for personal use will not require the formal import procedures. Remember you are not importing endangered goods, please keep reading below.

CITIES is to control the international movement and possession of specifically identified endangered species. This is an international attempt to eliminate the destruction and extinction of specifically identified species. For example; the possession and international movement of any “ivory” item is illegal, (this includes great grandma’s ivory hair brush that has been in the family for 90 years). This is to stem the trade and harvesting of elephant tusks and decimating the elephant populations. The CITIES agreement could be the subject of a very long debate and not everyone will agree with how we stop the destruction and trade of endangered flora and fauna. The corals that we are able to purchase in the marine trade at our local LFS stores are not on the CITIES list. Now I'm not saying that you can’t find illegally obtained species, because a person can find illegal goods of any kind almost anywhere if they want to pay for it. The standard run of marine life that we can all purchase in almost any LFS is not endangered – YET! If what you are importing is for your own personal use, is not intended for resale, is not on the list then revenues may be collected if the value exceeds the personal exemption limit. Exemption dollar value limits are based on the length of time absent from the US.

I’m just trying to highlight the border crossing requirements a wee bit. I have been importing and moving goods both ways across the Canada/USA border personally and commercially for more than 30 years now. It can seem confusing to folks not used to it, but you shouldn’t have a problem if everything is done on the up and up. If you are looking to import for commercial purposes, your life will be easier, albeit slightly more expensive, to use the services of a customs broker. If you want to know something; just make a telephone call to your local Customs Office and ask. Notate the date, time and person that you talked to just in case you encounter someone with a different understanding of the rules. But you shouldn’t have a problem.

I avoided the border question at first because it is a complex international trade negotiation matter. But to the average person who shops in a store in one country, anywhere in the world, and then takes their personal goods across the border into their own country too their own home for their own personal use; it’s really not a big deal. It’s done by thousands of people every day!

Anyway, I’m enjoying reading the thread and everybody’s ideas. I truly don’t want to offend anyone with my response above. On a more fun level; I’m really looking forward to meeting everyone at the Frag Swap! Any ideas on a way to identify each other; being as I don’t know anyone yet? What about some type of meet and greet? Or is all of that just too silly for all of us grownups? Coffee someplace before the swap starts, because once I’m finished shopping I’ll want to get my stuff home before it cools. How does everyone keep their purchases warm on a road trip home of any duration, like 4 hours or so?

Dave & the Boss (Tracy)
 
l/f frag of Acropora suharsonoi


this might lure me to the meet :)

Unfortunately, I just lost this entire colony Gary. Whole thing went overnight. It was a very sad day. I kept the skeleton to add with a couple other "special" pieces I've lost over the years. :(
 
Randy, too bad about the coral man.. Sorry.

Uslanja,

Thanks for the post. It was real good information.
It's interesting. Thanks to Gary too. Good points by both I think.

Not planning on doing any trip or purchase up there anytime soon.
However, I'm interested in this for a possible future situation. As well it being good info for all of us hobbyist living close to the border.

I tend to lean more on the side of caution with an issue like this.
It may depend on how stringent a certain officer would want to be, in a specific crossing... some would not care. Some would follow the rules to the letter of the law, and yet another could succeed at even expanding-over exaggerating those rules if they chose to.

Good points by all.
 
I didn't want to get off topic from the main point of this thread, but seems its already a page too late. Just want to toss my personal experience with border crossing. My wife and I were going to Montreal for a personal trip but driving my work truck with window advertisement signage. We were checked for fish and animals and asked at least a half dozen times if we have any livestock in the car.

I have crossed the border in Niagara Falls at least a few dozen times and seem at least once ever few my entire car would be searched. The worse experience was crossing the border at Grand Forks ND at 5 am and importing goods for resale into Canada. Even though our paper work was all done a head of time it took hours and everything was searched and checked many times.
 
As interesting as this border stuff is, let's get back on topic.

I'll be there and I will be bringing frags. I will be posting a list shortly, also I will be posting on the Fragswapper.

Waffleman
 
Thanks for the link Gary. I believe all corals and live rock are on the CITES list.

Looking forward to the swap.
 
I am looking forward to all the variety of corals! I got my month's allowance from my wife to spend :-)
 
I am looking forward to all the variety of corals! I got my month's allowance from my wife to spend :-)

hehe I spent mine already..I have to treat the wife extra special the next couple weeks :lol2:

I will be looking for cool zoa frags..Or I can do what I always do,go and drool over Randys zoo collection
 
I know I will spend more than my allowance. I just got new lights a couple weeks ago so now I can start to venture into SPS. Anything colorful that catches my eye is in danger of being bought
 
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