Fiish
Member
All the specimens you mention do not have such a high level of maintenance requirements, once adapted they are quite resistant fish. By 'pygmy angels' you mean Centropyge argi?
Calling all Centropyge keepers: Longevity of Centropyge angels in captivity
- Thread starter OrionN
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All the specimens you mention do not have such a high level of maintenance requirements, once adapted they are quite resistant fish. By 'pygmy angels' you mean Centropyge argi?
African Flameback, Brazilian Flameback, Pygmy Yellowtail too hehehe.
Fiish
Member
I understand, then you are referring to the 'argi complex', the group of smallest species in the entire genus Centropyge. You should have no problem with the difficulty of any of these specimens, only because of their aggressiveness, as already commented C. Argi is a small boy, in fact he is the smallest of all the dwarf angels, but he is not a pleasant subject when try to share a tank with other angels.
Yeah I will only be keeping one per tank.
If I had a 6' tank at least 140 gallons I would be willing to consider a Geniacanthus or maybe even a pair. Watanabei and Bellus are expensive and deepwater species that ship poorly, so I am more talking about a single Lamarck or Masked Swallowtail, or maybe a pair of Spotbreasts. Heard some of the Genicanthus are also relatively easy to keep, especially Lamarck's and Spotbreast.
Where I am, most Chinese / Taiwanese aquarists give a good review of Lamarck's, I haven't seen much on Spotbreast but I'd assume is similar. ReefApp rates Lamarck's and Spotbreast as "œHardy" among the genus. Chinese and Taiwanese hobbyists note the decompression issues for Watanabei's and Bellus, not many have kept a Bellus but for Watanabei's the general sentiment seems to be "œnot a hard fish if healthy." Key word is... "œhealthy."
If I had a 6' tank at least 140 gallons I would be willing to consider a Geniacanthus or maybe even a pair. Watanabei and Bellus are expensive and deepwater species that ship poorly, so I am more talking about a single Lamarck or Masked Swallowtail, or maybe a pair of Spotbreasts. Heard some of the Genicanthus are also relatively easy to keep, especially Lamarck's and Spotbreast.
Where I am, most Chinese / Taiwanese aquarists give a good review of Lamarck's, I haven't seen much on Spotbreast but I'd assume is similar. ReefApp rates Lamarck's and Spotbreast as "œHardy" among the genus. Chinese and Taiwanese hobbyists note the decompression issues for Watanabei's and Bellus, not many have kept a Bellus but for Watanabei's the general sentiment seems to be "œnot a hard fish if healthy." Key word is... "œhealthy."
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Fiish
Member
I have only had G.semifasciatus in previous years, I have never kept G.lamarck and G.melanospilos, but I'm sure they will not feel comfortable in less than 90 gallons. If you are in the USA you can have the opportunity to buy in DD, I'm in Mexico and unfortunately that cannot be possible, even so, I can get very good fish from QM, and quality matters too much when it comes to angelfish.
Yeah, it's really crucial to select the best specimens possible. How did you find yours? I see it's your profile picture. What happened to it? Did you find it an easy and disease resistant species compared to the dwarf angels?
I am actually in China btw. Chinese hobbyist. Tank is 140 gallons.
Generally hobbyists where I am think Lamarck's is easy, not sure about Spotbreast but I'd assume the same. They don't think the Watanabei and Bellus species are necessarily hard, but they've noticed decompression issues as a hurdle as they're the deep water gems in the genus. I haven't read much about their opinion of the Masked Japanese Swallowtail, the one you had.
I am actually in China btw. Chinese hobbyist. Tank is 140 gallons.
Generally hobbyists where I am think Lamarck's is easy, not sure about Spotbreast but I'd assume the same. They don't think the Watanabei and Bellus species are necessarily hard, but they've noticed decompression issues as a hurdle as they're the deep water gems in the genus. I haven't read much about their opinion of the Masked Japanese Swallowtail, the one you had.
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Fiish
Member
Unfortunately my G.semifasciatus passed away, yes, it is the one that you can see as my avatar. The story with this fish is a bit unusual, and it happened about 7 years ago. Here in Mexico we do not have many options to buy quality fish, but there are. The fish you see in my avatar, I asked a lfs with whom I had never asked for fish, I told him that I was looking for a female Spotbreast and when he told me that he had my fish, then I found a female G.semifasciatus. I honestly didn't feel ready for this fish, but it was already there, and it was for me, so I took it and threw it in my 90 gallon tank, and 3 days after pop eye disease, then here I get the answer for one of His questions, even though the other fish were fine, the quality of the water was not enough for my Genicanthus, and on the fourth day after having it, I was ready to take it out and start its treatment in a hospital tank and I just woke up dead. I learned that Genicanthus angels need great water quality and abundant waterflow. To be honest, I have no idea where they got this fish in my lfs, not to mention the owner's very bad knowledge, since he confused a G. melanospilos with G.semifasciatus, and paid what a Spotbreast is worth, so from that moment I realized there wasn't that much quality there, and I didn't get any kind of Genicanthus after that either. Compared to diseases I'm sure that any large angelfish is more sensitive to them, and since I got a fish vendor that gets quality fish, I have seen considerably higher prices, but it is also considerably higher quality, so it's worth paying for.
I'm sorry for your loss. It seems you got the Red Sea species which from what I've read is more delicate than G. melanospilos and G. Lamarck. You must really miss that fish. I don't plan to put in any angel until my water quality is stable, so I hope it all works out for me. So you'd say angels in general are a difficult fish?
Fiish
Member
I have never considered angelfish easy to maintain, they all require a certain quality of water, a mature system and a lot of live rock for grazing. Being the genus Centropyge the ones that most pry on the rocks. Copps says that there is no angelfish difficult to maintain, rather difficult to adapt, a coral beauty angelfish, will not adapt with as much difficulty as a golden angelfish would, and in turn a multibarred angel is even more complicated to adapt . But in order for any of these fish to prosper, this is where the quality of the fish you buy comes in, and the system you have.
Fiish
Member
A year ago I tried my luck with a multibarred angel, I have a mature system, but I received a fish from Indonesia, the specimens collected there are more complicated to adapt. So the fish never fed, and after 6 weeks in the tank he died. But I gave him a good amount of food, the behavior of the fish let me know that my water quality and system were fine, he swam all over the tank, and even became a little aggressive, he was an excellent specimen and I have a nice memory for keeping it.
Many people seem to have trouble with Indonesian fish, it seems. I heard Centropyge angels from there, maybe the Philippines too, are at a higher risk of being collected using cyanide compared to some other species or types of fish. Sorry for your loss, regardless. I’m surprised it lasted 6 weeks without feeding.
I’ll be adding an angel or two towards the end of my stocking plan. Before that, I’ll be having fish like a One-Spot Foxface, my pair of Black and White Ocellaris Clowns, pair of Flame Hawks, Marine Betta and maybe a trio of Pajama Cardinals.
Would six months be enough for a system to include any angel, or would you wait a year? Thanks. Do you think I need a refugium for Centropyge, Genicanthus or any angel?
I’ll be adding an angel or two towards the end of my stocking plan. Before that, I’ll be having fish like a One-Spot Foxface, my pair of Black and White Ocellaris Clowns, pair of Flame Hawks, Marine Betta and maybe a trio of Pajama Cardinals.
Would six months be enough for a system to include any angel, or would you wait a year? Thanks. Do you think I need a refugium for Centropyge, Genicanthus or any angel?
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Fiish
Member
I'm not sure if it's obligatory to use a refugium, but a skimmer is, when planning to have multiple angels. I feed my fish about 4 times a day, in portions that are capable of eating in a couple of minutes, little food is wasted. Once again I will quote something I learned reading the copps experiences, when he has an angelfish in QT, he feeds about 10 times a day, this gives the fish the opportunity to create an excellent fat reserve.
Fiish
Member
As a side note, I am planning to use miracle mud in my sump on my future 180G tank, could someone tell me how good is this? I have only read and seen some refugiums like this, and there are good comments about it. They say that miracle mud is a great product, how much can help in the quality of water for angelfishes mainteance?
Good to know! Thank You! It's been a couple years since I checked the research on their life expectancies. Can you post your links for the research. I'm sure it would be of interest for a lot of aquarists
From what I've read under good conditions it's pretty normal for the 4" Centropyge angels to live over 10 years.
What I find interesting is C. tibbicien is classified as a Centropyge but it's the same size as many of the medium sized angels and the Yelllow Tang. Larger than most of the Bristletooth Tangs. I would expect C. tibicien's lifespan to approach or exceed 20 years, if we go by this study.
Wouldn't be surprised if even the medium sized angels like Apolemichthys, Chartodonpolus, and Genicanthus can approach or exceed 20 years in captivity.
Once we get to the large-Large angels, I assume we'd be looking at 30 or 35+.
Here are my estimates for the lifespans of some of the fish I'll be including:
Pajama Cardinal 10-15 years
Ocellaris Clowns 20-30 years
Marine Betta 30-40 years
Royal Gramma ~10 years
One-Spot Foxface 20-25 years (relative of the Tangs, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's just as long lived as the Tangs)
Flame Hawkfish 15-20 years
Genicanthus spp. (Watanabei- 13 to 18 years, Bellus / Spotbreast-15 to 20 years, 8" and above including Lamarck's 20-25 years)
Yellow Tang 25-35 years
Cthenochaetus spp. 15-25 years
Xanthurus Cream Angelfish 20-25 years
Yellow Candy Hogfish 10-12 years
My estimates for the Centropyges:
-Dwarf 8-12 years
-4 to 5" angels 10-15 years
-Larger Centropyge (6" and larger) 13-18 years
What I find interesting is C. tibbicien is classified as a Centropyge but it's the same size as many of the medium sized angels and the Yelllow Tang. Larger than most of the Bristletooth Tangs. I would expect C. tibicien's lifespan to approach or exceed 20 years, if we go by this study.
Wouldn't be surprised if even the medium sized angels like Apolemichthys, Chartodonpolus, and Genicanthus can approach or exceed 20 years in captivity.
Once we get to the large-Large angels, I assume we'd be looking at 30 or 35+.
Here are my estimates for the lifespans of some of the fish I'll be including:
Pajama Cardinal 10-15 years
Ocellaris Clowns 20-30 years
Marine Betta 30-40 years
Royal Gramma ~10 years
One-Spot Foxface 20-25 years (relative of the Tangs, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's just as long lived as the Tangs)
Flame Hawkfish 15-20 years
Genicanthus spp. (Watanabei- 13 to 18 years, Bellus / Spotbreast-15 to 20 years, 8" and above including Lamarck's 20-25 years)
Yellow Tang 25-35 years
Cthenochaetus spp. 15-25 years
Xanthurus Cream Angelfish 20-25 years
Yellow Candy Hogfish 10-12 years
My estimates for the Centropyges:
-Dwarf 8-12 years
-4 to 5" angels 10-15 years
-Larger Centropyge (6" and larger) 13-18 years
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Fiish
Member
In fact, C. tibicen is considered the original dwarf angel, due to the original guidelines on its dorsal spines and anal fin, C. flavissima, C. eibli and C. vrolikii are supposedly added in this group. Note the similarities in their ichthyology, in theory they are considered the original Centropyge.
