Can't Grow "CERTAIN" Zoa's (In Mature Healthy Tank). Photo (Is this ChemicalWarfare?)

[Wally.B]

More Evidence to support "Too Strong Lighting Changes"

So after Acan Recovering, and posting last post it got me thinking to check my LIGHTING history. (Since Chemistry the same in TANK AND SUMP).

Good thing I print off my Lighting Programs from my Apex and hang on wall (since when you make a change, you lose the previous programmings)

When I look at the changes, it's pretty clear what I did.

1) I had to Zoa introduction Problem (Bad Lighting Acclimatization, but had wrong clues at that point)

2) After some playing, and failures, I move Zoa's out into Sump tray, but gain confidence to increase lightings (A)
-----> I turned OFF my Non Dimmable T5, to have better control over Kessil results.

3) Then a week later, with other corals doing better, I increased Photo Period on the Kessil (B)
-----> At this point, I started Burning the Acans
-----> Both the Damaged Zoa's and Acan's were being cleaned up/damaged by Amphipods. (They left healthy Corals Alone, which is normal)

4) Added the Hawkfish for Amphipod Control (no harm , Amphipods could be part of the Zoa, Acan problem, when weak)

5) So the key observation is my lighting changes were 3 factors
--------> i) Too quick Ramp up on both Kessil (Intensity)
--------> ii) Added Photo Period to Kessil, but remove some T5's
--------> ii) But another KEY factor was a short kessil Intensity spike (1hour at 60%) which wasn't long, but gave the Acans a short before bedtime burn .
-------------------> THIS Short Burn put the Zoa's and Acans into recoil, allowing Amphipods to damage at night
-------------------> They recovered a bit each day, when Aphipods were gone, and light back to lower levels
-------------------> But each day got weaker and weaker over time.
So at least I now have a plan to restore corals health, and do a proper introduction on Lighting (at point (C) right now) .

No Harm having less Amphipod, since they are the extra Damage Crew.

The hope is that with slow Aclimatization, the other Zoa's should do just a well as my Utter Chaos Zoa.
( Zoa which was expensive so I really acclimatzed very slowly, [not by lighting changes, but by placement]).

** NEW APPROACH with be combined: **
-------> Low Placement, Shaded. Then gradually move into permanent locations.
-------> Slowly Find Light Intensity Limits (kessil, T5's)
-------> Then stretch out a increase on PhotoPeriod

There is a good chance if healthy the other Zoa's won't be attacked by any remaining Amphipods. (will be less with Hawkfish anyway)

Another lesson learned in this wonderful challenging hobby.

(All common sense stuff, but easy to get sidetracked with incorrect assumptions, or double causes.)

At least I hope I got it figured out.

 

[triggreef]

Amphipods are not the problem. They are one of the best cleaners in your tank. They are only doing their job. They clean all the little garbage out that settles in and around your corals. Do they irritate them? Yes a little. I watched that coral eating amphipod video someone posted. lol. It's not attacking those polyps. It's doing a great job cleaning up around it. Tomorrow that polyp will be 110% better and loving life.

Flow is very important for zoas. The fact that you have pods all over them, tells me that the flow is a little slow and detritus is most likely settling in or around the polyps. Also any crabs walking over them will cause them to close temporarily. I know you say both sump and tank have gentle flow, but everyones opinion of flow strength is different, and the smallest change in flow can be a real game changer.

I know a thing or 2 about par and watch par closely in my tank. I also run only leds. The par your at is perfect when getting 100 or so near the bottom. A little more would be better I get about 140 or so at 27" down. The length of time your running could be a problem. your corals usable photo period is only about 6 hrs. I would suggest keeping your highest setting at 6 hours, and ramping down and up aggressively at each end of that 6 hours. I generally cut it down by 30 to 40% each hour after until close to nothing. Anything more than that is just fueling algae.

Also, there are certain parameters that can effect certain types of coral, but not others. Including tin, iron, zinc, and copper. Not really any good hobbiest kits to test those with, but a triton test could reveal something you'd never thought of. One last thing, chemiclean helps zoas quite a bit and I've used it as a dip very successfully for ailing zoas. Especially if you have any that are closed for long periods and turn brown, which is a sign of bacterial infection.

Good luck, I hope something in there helps you out.

 

[Wally.B]

Amphipods are not the problem.... .

Great info. Many thanks.

I have considered the Triton test, and maybe it's time. This is a 15 year old tank so there could be all kinds of build up in the rocks. Back in 2005 this tank and rocks got infused with Copper from a Kent Carbon contamination and crashed (wiping out most corals, and All inverts in 24hrs (biggest loss was my 7 year old prized Clam). Zero copper on standard test kits (after rebuild), but a full Triton test could identify more (things) accurately.

Things are getting better, since my back off on lighting. Ramping up REALLY slowly this time, and Managed to get one of the ailing Zoa's back to health (in sump), and introduced it to the tank. Best result so far (target tank height but shaded).

I think the flow is fine, since all good corals love it. Even my Utter Chaos Zoa is flourishing really well recently. (Stretching a bit since lighting was dropped. I'll catch up soon on lighting intensity).

You may be correct on the Amphipods, they never attacked any healthy corals.

No harm with adding the Long Nose Hawkfish. He's really cool and already eating Frozen food from my hand.

** One observation based on your comment: (You may be DEAD ON my issue ) [TOO LONG PHOTOPERIOD (Highest Light Setting) ] **
** I noticed the Zoa's, and especially the Acans. They perk up when lights come on (for a while, few hours), the then pooch out **
** I always wondered, why Acan's don't stay open all day and into night, and loose chance to feed at night being scrunched up **
** GOING to reduced the Main Light Photo Period **

Thanks again.

 

[Wally.B]

Triggreef Thanks for the PhotoSoak Limit TIP

You may be very correct (Some Corals can't handle the longer PhotoPeriod). Bit to early to say, we'll see in a few days.

At this point before. Zoa's would be shrivelled, and Acan starting to close up.

The one Zoa I put in is staying open, and Acan's look like they wil make it open for the night.

Very cool. Actually Amazing, since the future could be bright . Full Tray of Zoa's waiting in the sump.

 

[NyReefNoob]

check late at night also and look for nudi's. also those euphilia might be reaching out at night and swiping them as well

 

[Wally.B]

I have looked over the years (Overnight). They don't reach out that far.

You would think they would hit the Palsy's before reach any below.

 

[samchag]

every tank has those few zoas they can't keep for whatever reason, for me its red hornets and utter chaos, all other hornets do very well and many other high end palys just can't keep those 2 for the life of me, no real reason why they melt they just do

 

[Wally.B]

every tank has those few zoas they can't keep for whatever reason, for me its red hornets and utter chaos, all other hornets do very well and many other high end palys just can't keep those 2 for the life of me, no real reason why they melt they just do

Thanks. That makes me feel a bit better.

I feel lucky that my Utter Chaos's are doing Super great. Couple others doing so-so. Others melting away like yours.

So it's trial and error.

Bad part is this limits my will to buy expensive Zoa's for now (as nice as they are).

 

[Wally.B]

ALL Zoa's Doing Great now. (Must have been Ampipods)

I know there are folks that believe or disbelieve that Ampipods can damage Zoanthinds.

We'll I'm a believer that they DO!!

As per this thread, I got that Hawkfish, and he's continued to be fat. I sparingly feed him a few flakes since he begs, but that's it.

I know he's been cleaning my tank from Ampipods since I did inspect at nighttime with a Flashlight. There are NONE TO BE SEEN anymore (NOT EVEN ONE). There used to be swarms.

And now it's been a couple of week that my Zoa's have been doing well. I added a few new ones ,and they are also doing great. Before they would close up almost instantly, and I would see swarms of Amphipods on them.

Here is what the Zoa's look like now.

- I haven't changed lighting SIGNIFICANTLY (Slightly lower intensity, slightly lower photoperiod... but working up quickly with new confidence. Not much effort for new Intro Aclimitazation. Just placed low down)
- I have Zoas various locations (just like before when I had problems)
- I don't feed them any different than before.

I'm a firm believer in Amphipods Irritating and destroying Zoa's.
I could be wrong. If wrong, then what changed?

- At this point, I'm slowly increasing lighting to reach Target Levels (Frogspawn need more light as seen in Tank Photo)
- Then I'll be moving the pods onto the rockwork to start the Zoa Gardens.
- If all continues well, I may get a few quality Zoa's since these were all cheap $5/$10 on/sale pods.

 

[oldbones]

Zoa color has improved quite a bit!

 

[Rx79394]

Wally -

I am glad you started to get this going the right way. It was interesting to see the progress on this thread (I just viewed it the first time today), you put in a lot of effort on all of the pictures and diagrams... so it is nice to see the work paying off.

I'm curious on how much exactly your lighting has changed.

 

[Wally.B]

So if you read my thread CONCLUSION/THEORY, you understand that I don't think ONLY Cause was lighting, however it is was part of the factor. (The 1-2 Punch)

I am still trying to figure out where my lighting limit is with my 2x (T5 Dimmables), 2x (T5 Full ON/OFF), and My 1x Kessil light.

I did back off, for a while, then went up, then backed off, and just recently am moving UP a bit (max 10%) each week. I think I'm quite low and can go higher since whatever was irritating my Zoa's is gone (Ampihpods or something else).

My Current Setting is as below.

I think I need to go a bit more on both Intensity and PhotoPeriod, since my Frogspawns used to be under MH lights, and now with the reduction in lighting, they are as happy. Zoa's are happy for first time, so I am being extra careful to work up slowly. Really slowly.

That the problem with this hobby. You sometimes can see the invisible things. Or sometimes things take time for a reaction.
I did rent a PAR Meter for a weekend, and that helped me understand my lights. PAR at all on, PAR at one on. But with UV it doesn't pick up on PAR Meter.

My new way with Lighting changes. Is RECORD SETTINGS (print them). Come back in a week and see if things are ok. Then increase a bit. Do all over again.
Tricky part for me with 3 sets of different lights is increase which one next. I think my Kessil is the strong one since it has the UV leds.
So I'm currently only increasing T5. I overshot the Kessil too many times and burned corals.

 

[Clown99]

love the setup. awesome reef

 

[Wally.B]

Update (Keep Increasing Lighting Slowly / Zoa's moved to Front & Main Lighting Exposure)

I must admit, I still haven't stabilized with respect to Lighting. I'm still slowly increasing, and corals appear to want more.

I think the Zoa's have acclimatized enough, so they have been moved to front of Tank (where they will get more direct lighting).

If they do well in the front, they will finally go on rocks permanently.

Some Zoa's doing we'll. One Not not. Two have faded away, or gotten eaten. These Corals baffle me.

Here is an Current photo.

I'm about to start Automatic Daily Calc/Alk Dosing, since till now it's been adjustment as needed.

The HawkFish, continues to have a large belly, even thought I feed him minimal. What the heck is he eating?

 

[Wally.B]

Aha! Found a couple of Zoa's pickers (Not Allowed!! Confined to sump)

So while doing an inspection this morning for new Zoa Location notice a couple of Zoa pickers.

Appears the Zebra Hermit, and Emerald crab may have been a possible cause of Zoa discomfort. This tank is very lightly feed with single Fish (HawkFish) so perhaps they pick everywhere to find food scapes.

Great Part is that simply lifting the Eggcrate FragTray and scooping them up was easy. They are now in sump where they won't be a nuisance anymore. We'll see if Zoa's do better.

Crabs will be fine in sump since I have a SeaWeed feeder in there.

 

[Mael]

this goes back to page one again with the amphipods, in 99% of cases the invert in question is either going after an already dying polyp, basically cleaning it even though the sloughing skin is what they are eating, or they are eating stuff between/under the polyps and it looks like they are going after them. They can and will definitely make them close by crawling on them, but they are not eating them. Have run all three of these crustaceans for years in Z/P dominated tanks with no issues. When polyps die it is usually from light burn, bacterial infection from fragging, Unkown other pest(nudis), etc

Now if you want no zoa discomfort at all, then anything but snails(and even then...) will crawl on zoas and irritate them. that said my frag tank is 85% Z/P and I have all those crustaceans in there, of course these are my experiences, there are rogues in every species....both inverts and fish.

your display looks great btw, especially the euphylia choices, love em.

 

[Wally.B]

this goes back to page one again with the amphipods, in 99% of cases the invert in question is either going after an already dying polyp, basically cleaning it even though the sloughing skin is what they are eating, or they are eating stuff between/under the polyps and it looks like they are going after them. They can and will definitely make them close by crawling on them, but they are not eating them. Have run all three of these crustaceans for years in Z/P dominated tanks with no issues. When polyps die it is usually from light burn, bacterial infection from fragging, Unkown other pest(nudis), etc

Now if you want no zoa discomfort at all, then anything but snails(and even then...) will crawl on zoas and irritate them. that said my frag tank is 85% Z/P and I have all those crustaceans in there, of course these are my experiences, there are rogues in every species....both inverts and fish.

your display looks great btw, especially the euphylia choices, love em.

I hear your points. (Very valid) Emerald & Hermit will be put back eventually, and actually next day another Hermit was digging around exactly the same areas. I notice why. Food is getting trapped in the EggCrate holes, and that why they are there. After a good feeding, nothing like a Snooze in a Zoa Bed.

I was just being extra sensitive, since I want to place the Zoa's up on the rocks. Been babying them for a while to acclimatize them to my mystery lighting levels.

Once They are on rocks (hoping this weekend), and doing well, it's open game for crew come by and clean the Zoa's.

Yes the Euphulia's are one of my Favourites. The Green Frogspawn was one head 10+ years ago. Now it's like 80+ heads, and some have been sold due to limited space.

 

[Wally.B]

Zoa's on Journey UP

I've moved up the Zoa's to their future Placement Level.

Haven't attached them yet, BUT put them on EggCrate Tracks.

What I find interesting is I also moved the Acan's up a bit and to my surprise the puffed up really well. (I guess they need more lighting than they got on the bottom).

 

[Wally.B]

this goes back to page one again with the amphipods, in 99% of cases the invert in question is either going after an already dying polyp, basically cleaning it even though the sloughing skin is what they are eating, or they are eating stuff between/under the polyps and it looks like they are going after them. They can and will definitely make them close by crawling on them, but they are not eating them. Have run all three of these crustaceans for years in Z/P dominated tanks with no issues. When polyps die it is usually from light burn, bacterial infection from fragging, Unkown other pest(nudis), etc

Now if you want no zoa discomfort at all, then anything but snails(and even then...) will crawl on zoas and irritate them. that said my frag tank is 85% Z/P and I have all those crustaceans in there, of course these are my experiences, there are rogues in every species....both inverts and fish.

your display looks great btw, especially the euphylia choices, love em.

Just a follow up, and Emerald Crabs eating Corals.

My Emerald Crab is still in the Sump (Hasn't been returned to Zoa Tank).
The previous Emerald that was in this same sump grew massively compared to this new Emerald (since he was able to get access to much food flowing into the sump).
I put that Large Emerald into my SPS tank, since there is work for him there.
I expect the small Emerald to be very happy in the sump.

So I was at a LFS this weekend and in a holding tank were many Emeralds. They had Zoa's in that tank and I was shocked to see them all ripping apart the Zoa's. (Not just cleaning them, but ripping them apart). I GUESS THEY WERE BEING UNDERFED.

So after coming home I read up more about Emerald Crab and there are warnings if they don't get enough food (meaty foods) that they can convert to Coral eating (which mine may have).

I think I was underfeeding this tank (which only had the HawkFish), and it's possible my Crabs were doing more than just cleaning up the Zoa's.

Ever since removing the Hermit and Emerald last week, ALL my Zoa's are doing MUCH MUCH better (noticeable change after just a few days).

So until I decide to get more Fish and Feed this tank more, I'll stay away from any Crabs.
I'll just add more Snails as needed to control the little algae that does grow.
(However there is a turf like algae that I notice the Emerald did take care of, and we'll see how it does without the Emerald around).

 

[Rx79394]

hmm, glad things are going better now. It is interesting that you decided to remove the zebra hermit, I haven't read/seen anything that would indicate possible irritation.

I am sure the automatic alk dosing is helping a lot though! I too dose my tank every once in a while, and noticed my Mg was at 1140 while Alk was at 7. Shortly after making the adjustments all of my corals looked 10000x times better. This of course, could have been the placebo effect. I now am looking at doing an auto doser with a jabeo set-up.