Caribbean Biotope Seagrass Tank

[taricha]

Hey Michael, off topic.
What are your go-to dosing sources? I know we talked about ammonia and the desirability/complications.
Just bring it up because seachem Flourish nitrogen it turns out is half nitrate - half urea. The urea (and its gradual breakdown to ammonia) seems very well suited for plants and green algae.

Ran across the source info for Flourish N in the context of fighting dinos. Algae/plants seem really good at uptake of smaller simpler inorganic forms of N and P, and conversely worse at absorbing forms that are bigger organics. (Dinos flip this, and are weirdly better at bigger organics uptake, and not as good at the simplest NO3 and PO4 uptakes).

But generally interested in your sources for N, P, Fe, K, I etc and your assessment of what you've liked and not.

 

[Michael Hoaster]

Hey taricha!

Nitrogen and Potassium: Potassium Nitrate, aka stump remover. I was using ammonia before dino outbreak. Now back to potassium nitrate.

Phosphorus: fish food I feed the tank. I experimented with a high phosphate plant tab, since seagrasses prefer root uptake of phosphate. I saw no benefit. I may experiment further, with another phosphate source.

Iron: I've tried a couple of the common bottled iron supplements for aquariums. They both worked well.

Iodine: I occasionally dose a common iodine supplement for aquariums. I'm wary of it because it can easily be overdosed, and I'm not sure how important it is to my plants.

I also dose magnesium occasionally, and a trace element supplement. For the sponges, I dose sodium silicate and feed phytoplankton.

 

[Chasmodes]

Great topic Taricha and answering post Michael, thank you. I'm certainly taking note of this. I have much to learn. Thanks also for the link Subsea.

Also, McPuff, I like the idea of the TTM method and I think that is what my approach will be when I transfer my critters to the big tank. I may do it sooner.

 

[McPuff]

Great topic Taricha and answering post Michael, thank you. I'm certainly taking note of this. I have much to learn. Thanks also for the link Subsea.

Also, McPuff, I like the idea of the TTM method and I think that is what my approach will be when I transfer my critters to the big tank. I may do it sooner.

I hadn't ever done it until just over a year ago when I added 3 tangs to my display. Knowing they are prone to ich, I decided it was worth the effort. Turned out to be very easy! And knowing the fish are FREE of ich really settles the nerves. After that you can treat for other parasites using whatever methods (perhaps even in the DT if necessary). I didn't have a proper QT set up back then so some medication was sent via foods and the fish have done great. Now, I'm opting to do the extra medications (prazi, metro) in a designated QT. This has also proven to be quite simple, and has allowed my tiny fish to grow quite nicely in their own private house. :0)

 

[Michael Hoaster]

One thing I forgot to mention on dosing is CO2. Carbon is very important to plants - at least ten times more than nitrogen. Most aquatic plants in nature and aquariums are carbon-limited. So CO2 is often the missing link for good plant growth.

On the flip side, too much CO2 has been implicated in dinoflagellate blooms. I think it was a factor in mine.

 

[JZinCO]

Michael,
I can't remember how you were dosing co2. With a tank and regulator? Any thoughts on Flourish Excel or glutaraldehyde? My SO and I use the latter two on our f/w planted tank. I'm not sure it makes a difference but the tank is doing just fine either way.

 

[Michael Hoaster]

Yes, I have a tank and regulator, I originally bought for a calcium reactor setup. Well, I rent the tank, and replace it every few months with a full one. By the way, calcium reactors are great for planted tanks. You get the calcium that all plants need, especially the calcified ones like halimeda, plus the benefits of CO2 that all plants need.

Rather than the additional complication of setting up a calcium reactor, I chose to run the air line tubing from the regulator to the intake of my canister filter. I run calcium media in the canister filter, so I still get the benefits of calcium dosing, without setting up (and maintaining) an additional gadget.

I have no experience with Flourish Excel or glutaraldehyde. What are YOUR thoughts on them? Could you start by telling me what they are? What do they add to your tank?

I will say I have a preference for additives that are ONE thing, like Iron. But I'm open to suggestions!

 

[JZinCO]

I have no experience with Flourish Excel or glutaraldehyde. What are YOUR thoughts on them? Could you start by telling me what they are? What do they add to your tank?

I will say I have a preference for additives that are ONE thing, like Iron. But I'm open to suggestions!

Those products are an alternative source for carbon. I was referred to glut by a friend who I trust for both salt and freshwater guidance.
But.. now that I look into it, I cannot find any evidence that they work well. And glut in fact has some OSHA safe handling practices. Given that, I'm think I'm gonna chuck it. Not worth the risk.
I'll PM you some links for reading, given RC's policy on linking to other forums.

BTW if calc reactors release both CO2 and available calcium, I'll consider that for my next setup. It is getting close to 'build thread' worthy! Still holding off on the 270 gallon, but will work on the cubes (150 reef + 40 planted caribbean).

 

[JZinCO]

On another note, I was looking into Flourish for reef tanks (just for giggles) and ran across this:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1965442
Based on your additives (I think you used root tabs before), do you suspect you've introduced copper into your system?

edit: ha! I continued reading and saw you commented on that thread. Still, any thoughts about copper?

 

[Michael Hoaster]

I don't think I've introduced copper. I don't buy anything with copper in it. I don't think tiny amounts of copper are very harmful, as aquatic plants take up heavy metals including copper. Not sure if this applies to macros though. The safest bet is just to avoid it.

 

[Subsea]

Yes, macro takes up copper. When I was developing market for the human consumption of Rec Ogo, Gracilaria Parvispora, I sent ogo to an agriculture lab in Nebraska for chemical analysis:

Nitrogen at 2.59%
Phosphorus at 0.082%
Potassium at 13.54%
Calcium at 0.555%
Magnesium at 1.163%
Sulfur at 4.8%
Zinc at 138 ppm
Iron at 107 ppm
Manganese at 20 ppm
Copper at 7.0 ppm

While these numbers do not line up with Redfield Ratio 106/16/1 of carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus, I have been educated on that point of recent. Professor Jerry Brand is Director for Algae Culture Collection with Molecular Bioscience Dept. at UT. It is the largest algae collection in the world, includes fresh and marine algae’s. Because most plants, including seaweed can store nutrients when available, then retrieve them from their biomass when deficient in water column, macro nutrient uptake will depend on what is in the water.

 

[Subsea]

Hey taricha!

Nitrogen and Potassium: Potassium Nitrate, aka stump remover. I was using ammonia before dino outbreak. Now back to potassium nitrate.

Phosphorus: fish food I feed the tank. I experimented with a high phosphate plant tab, since seagrasses prefer root uptake of phosphate. I saw no benefit. I may experiment further, with another phosphate source.

Iron: I've tried a couple of the common bottled iron supplements for aquariums. They both worked well.

Iodine: I occasionally dose a common iodine supplement for aquariums. I'm wary of it because it can easily be overdosed, and I'm not sure how important it is to my plants.

I also dose magnesium occasionally, and a trace element supplement. For the sponges, I dose sodium silicate and feed phytoplankton.

Michael,
For cryptic sponges, you could dose vinegar as a carbon source. Sponges would get it before bacteria. At one time, I did dose vinegar thinking that I was promoting macro growth. Instead, I disproportionally grew cryptic sponges. For us that grow macro, cryptic sponges are the way to go.

Algae produce DOC, cryptic sponge eats DOC and gives off DIC and Marine Snow, both food for coral. The loop feeds itself, just as in nature.

 

[Michael Hoaster]

Time for a Re-Do?

Time for a Re-Do?

Well, the tank's been up for about three and a half years. I've learned a ton and had a blast in the process. Posting here on RC has been a highlight. I went back to the beginning of this thread and started re-reading. There's a ton of good info in this thing! I'm stoked with all I was able to do. I'm grateful for the help all of you have provided. It's been a great run!

But now I'm feeling like I need to start over. I think starting a tank over has many benefits. I'd like to take all the good stuff I've learned and apply it to next one. I'd like to avoid making some mistakes I've made. I'd like to try doing some things I didn't before. There are several things I'd like to do that aren't possible, while it's up and running.

So I see this as a great opportunity to fix some things that are bugging me, and apply all this knowledge I've acquired over the last few years. I sat down in front of the tank yesterday and wrote down a bunch of stuff I could do, to make it better. I came up with a pretty good list!

 

[Subsea]

For certain, continue posting on other threads, you have much wisdom to share.

Also, come visit Austin. I will make a seaweed cheviche from my tanks for you.

 

[Michael Hoaster]

Hold on a second! I'm not quitting. Is that what it sounded like? Not at all. I just need to break the tank down and fix some things.

By the way, thanks for the kind words, Subsea!

I've just reached a point where it looks like the best option is to restart the tank, so I can make some changes that would be impossible to do while it's up and running. I would imagine many of us have gotten to this point. It's that time when you look at your tank and see things you wish you could change, but you put them off, so you don't upset the balance you've worked hard to achieve. So they kind of pile up. Now I've reached that point where I'm ready to make those changes.

One thing I've found in this hobby is that it's very difficult to get everything right the first time. So you make your best effort, and live with it for awhile. In that time you can see where improvements could be made, that you'd never think of in the initial planning. Then, when you're ready, you go back and do it again, and do it righter!

 

[JZinCO]

My first thought was noooooo. But, I'm excited to see what happens. Tell us what you're thinking. What's going to happen to your existing lifestock, live sand, etc?

 

[Subsea]

Hold on a second! I'm not quitting. Is that what it sounded like? Not at all. I just need to break the tank down and fix some things.

By the way, thanks for the kind words, Subsea!

I've just reached a point where it looks like the best option is to restart the tank, so I can make some changes that would be impossible to do while it's up and running. I would imagine many of us have gotten to this point. It's that time when you look at your tank and see things you wish you could change, but you put them off, so you don't upset the balance you've worked hard to achieve. So they kind of pile up. Now I've reached that point where I'm ready to make those changes.

One thing I've found in this hobby is that it's very difficult to get everything right the first time. So you make your best effort, and live with it for awhile. In that time you can see where improvements could be made, that you'd never think of in the initial planning. Then, when you're ready, you go back and do it again, and do it righter!

In the last six months, I made major changes in a 25 year old setup. The easiest and probably the most important for long term was turning out the lights in 30G mud macro refugium to focus on cryptic sponges. The most difficult was syphoning down a twenty five year old 6" Jaubert Plenum sandbed to a depth of 2".

Happy trails,

 

[Michael Hoaster]

I'm still fleshing out the plan, but here are some of the things I want to do:

First, there are some pests I want to get rid of. The aiptasia anemones and the dinoflagellates are obvious, but even some of the macros, namely, the red and black grasilaria have become pests. These two plants have become an encrusting turf that has blanketed way too much real estate. I don't like the look and they're a pain to remove, so they gotta go!

I'm even considering the mini strombus snails. These guys reproduce prolifically and are great at keeping macros and even the finer-bladed seagrasses clean. So it seems insane to get rid of them. I probably won't. But they do have a downside. Any new macro I introduce has only a 50% chance of survival, thanks to these guys. They're voracious! Since I already have another reproducing snail that doesn't go after macros (the Ceriths) I'm considering it. Maybe I should just thin their population. I guess I could sell some.

I hope to keep all livestock going for the restart. This includes the live sand. I've got a ton of detrivores I want to keep. The complication is the dinos. It doesn't appear that mine are sand dwellers, but I do want to avoid bringing them along, so I'm still thinking on this. I may try to remove worms and then clean the sand, or possibly even replace it with new sand. Not sure yet. The live rock I'm afraid will have to be sacrificed to insure no aiptasias survive. It's only ten pounds, so it's not a huge sacrifice. I will likely lose all my encrusting sponges though. Maybe I can save some fragments. I ran the tank with no live rock for months before I added it for biodiversity. I'll probably replace it with new live rock at some point.

I should be able to keep the fish and snails in the QTs.

Keeping the shoal grass and macros alive may be a challenge, but I've got some ideas. The trick will be to make sure they are completely cleaned of aiptasias and dinos. I will be looking into methods for cleaning/disinfecting plants.

This brings me to the practice of quarantining all new additions to the tank. This will now include plants, rock, everything. I'll throw them in QT and observe them for awhile, to make sure no uninvited guests are present. This demands a new level of patience, but I'm getting used to it, and seeing how NOT quarantining has affected my tank is plenty of incentive!

That just about covers the living elements, though I'm sure I'll think of more. Next up will be system changes I want to make.

 

[vlangel]

Wow Michael, I did not really see this coming but I understand why you've come to this place. It still makes me feel kind of sad to see it go, although I will be definitely following your reboot.

 

[Michael Hoaster]

Thanks, vlangel!

It's really not that big a deal. The tank will look pretty much the same as before. No big changes, really. More like several small changes that need to get done, and I need to take it down to do them. As I said, some things that bugged me have just been piling up, so I think this is the best way forward.

I'll post the system changes shortly.