Caribbean Biotope Seagrass Tank

My fake Mangrove Root Pics!

My fake Mangrove Root Pics!

Ok, so I'm posting pics for the first time, so bear with me.

Here are some pics of the very beginning phase of my fake mangrove root project. I hope you can see them well enough to tell what's going on.

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IMG]http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=8941&pictureid=61510[/IMG]

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Hopefully everything shows up!
 
Well, 3 out of 4! I thought the captions would show up as well.

The first image shows the basic armature (skeleton) of the mangrove root. Those are plastic bottles forming the main root, and wires forming the smaller roots. The small wooden arm extending horizontally just marks the depth of the sand bed at 7.5 inches.

Second image is a crude sketch with the mangrove to the right.

Third is the two-part epoxy clay I'll be covering the armature with. It's non-toxic when dry. It's gray so I may paint dark brown when it's done.
 
Thanks again, 3DReef for the very helpful info. I tend to agree, so I guess I'll be using less of my eco-complete than I had originally planned. I remember reading about those beneficial bacteria that help out the roots with nutrient uptake. I do expect there to be anoxic conditions at the bottom of the sandbed, but I won't put the seagrass' roots that deep.
 
My Fake Mangrove Root - Foil Stage

My Fake Mangrove Root - Foil Stage

Here' a couple of pics of the root with foil on it. The foil looks weird but it does help to visualize it.

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I'm pretty happy with it so far! Working with the foil is pretty easy - just tear off a sheet and wad it up around the wire. This'll help bulk it up so I don't run out of epoxy clay.

I had to modify the design as I went. I had to compress it front to back so I'll be able to get it under my hood and into the tank. Next I've got to make sure it'll work with my powerhead!
 
More changes to fit the powerhead inside. Also I got rid of the main root, after looking at mangrove pictures again. I'm thinking of replacing 2 liter cola bottle with 5" PVC to make it a more rigid structure. I'm also considering building it in separate pieces, so getting it in the tank will be less challenging. It's amazing how many complications pop up as I go along!
 
Nice thread! I too am starting a manatee grass biotope, but mine is a 29 gallon RDSB sump for a 75 gallon reef tank. I went with a 2 inch thick layer of ~5mm crushed shell at the bottom to fight anoxic conditions, a 4 inch thick middle layer of ~1mm arogonite sand for the root structures, and a 1 inch layer of sugar fine oolitic on top to keep detritus from clogging the system too quickly. For initial nutrients, I've placed a very few small pieces of plant spikes. Since this sump is a settling tank for a larger system, I believe no further fertilization will be required. ASW replaces many micro nutrients with each water change, and macro will come from display waste. I was able to seed the sand with a few cups from another display, plus i seeded with sand i collected from a manatee grass bed. I too am considering bio balls, but I'm going to wait and see how my nitrate settles after my cycle matures. If my display macro algae limits nitrate, I'll just add bio balls upstream the sand bed. The only thing I've learned so far, on this setup, is that I should have waited to add the grass. if I use the strong light that the grasses need, pest algae and diatoms explode due to the nutrient rich new tank water. If I dimm the light, the grass yellows out and dies back. I'm only about a month in, and I've lost half the height of my grasses. Luckily, the roots I've checked are still pearly white. I would recommend adding the first grasses after your tank has had a few months to mature.
 
Thanks, SecondsBest for sharing your experience. You said you were about a month in right? Is your display tank the same age, or is your seagrass sump the only new element? What do you think is the source of nutrients in your "nutrient rich new tank water"? The substrate? The display tank? I was planning to plant heavily with seagrass from the start to outcompete the algae. Do you think this is a mistake? It seems to me if there are excess nutrients in the water, why not plant early? If you don't, then there is nothing to compete with the algae.

I'd appreciate any other thoughts you have. And I look forward to hearing your results when you implement the bio balls!

It'd be great to avoid that early algae phase. But is it really possible? Even when I planted heavily in my freshwater tanks I still got algae while the plants got established. I'm guessing this happened because I may have added fish too soon and/or I covered the eco-complete with only a light layer of gravel, allowing nutrients to easily enter the bulk water. I hope to avoid those mistakes with this tank.

I've read that seagrasses get the majority of their nutrients through their roots, just like terrestrial plants. I'm going to try to confine most of the nutrients to the substrate and keep the water nutrient-poor. Also, per discussion earlier in this thread, I'm going to start with a less nutrient rich substrate than I had originally planned. Wish me luck!

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated!
 
This 75 gallon display tank, and the 29 gallon sump, are new. I also have a 20 gallon down stream of the 29. The 20 has a shallow sand bed of about 15 pounds oolitic, plus 20 pounds of reef ruble, all established for six months on another tank setup. The 20 also contains my skimmer plus the evicted tenants from my other tank. For the display, I put in 100 pounds dry rock, and then I added 10 pounds live rock from my other tank. The display is bare bottom. I consider the water nutrient rich because I had heavily stocked the display with macro algae I collected locally. By heavily, I mean a 5gallon buckets worth. It was also packed with thousands of inverts. A good part of this died off, kick starting my new tank cycle. I then removed most of the macro algae, leaving some specimens, plus all the inverts to establish. At the one month point, my parameters for the nitrogen cycle are all good (all undetectable, including nitrate), but I'm sure the dry rock needs more time to establish. Green film, red hair, and diatoms are growing faster than my macros. Grass stems have died back, but the rhizomes are growing. From my experience, this is just a continuing part of a new tank cycle, and I would rather not worry about nursing the grass while I did nutrient export. I think your plans are still workable, but I wouldn't expect explosive macro algae or grass growth up front. That may be more evident for you since you don't have cured live rock or sand in the works. As for the bio balls, I will only add them if I don't see grass and macro growth, and if nitrates remain undetectable; otherwise, I prefer to keep nitrates low for the corals that I will add to the display in another month or so.
 
Tell us a bit about the two buckets of mix to make mangroves. I have always wanted to do a mangrove edge tank but thought I would use bent PVC pipe and make then look more real with a bit of that sculpting mix.
 
Great info Secondbest, thanks. I see how you are going through your new tank situation with a heavy nutrient load - a tricky situation!

I hope to avoid the nutrient heavy water in the beginning by not adding fish or curing live rock in the tank. So this tank will be a bit different than a new reef tank or fish only setup. I agree I shouldn't expect explosive seagrass growth at first. I've just got to be patient.

I really learned a lot from the "Old Favorites" threads. Some of those grass and macro folks had little to no fish loads, so they were dosing nutrients, which of course seems insane to reef keepers! Adjusting the ratio of nitrate to phosphate is pretty mind-blowing stuff. Have your read any of those threads?

Since you said you have near zero nitrate, but still nutrient-heavy water, maybe your N to P ratio is off. Maybe you should consider cranking up the nitrate factory to help your plants export the phosphate.
 
Well, JPF, one is the resin, one is the hardener. You mix them at a one to one ratio to get the clay, then you sculpt. Since I've never used it before I don't have much else to tell at this point. Once I get my hands dirty, I should have more to say about it. I look forward to sharing the experience!

I think using PVC should work well. I'm probably going to replace my plastic bottles with PVC myself to get a sturdier structure.

I'm figuring it out as I go. With all my design constraints (fitting a powerhead inside it, getting it under my hood), my project is much more complicated than just sculpting the root. But I like a challenge and the more I fool with it, the closer I come to finishing this thing.

So I want to get it right the first time, so I don't have to do it again!
 
It'd be great to avoid that early algae phase. But is it really possible? Even when I planted heavily in my freshwater tanks I still got algae while the plants got established. I'm guessing this happened because I may have added fish too soon and/or I covered the eco-complete with only a light layer of gravel, allowing nutrients to easily enter the bulk water. I hope to avoid those mistakes with this tank.

I've read that seagrasses get the majority of their nutrients through their roots, just like terrestrial plants. I'm going to try to confine most of the nutrients to the substrate and keep the water nutrient-poor. Also, per discussion earlier in this thread, I'm going to start with a less nutrient rich substrate than I had originally planned. Wish me luck!

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated!

I would suggest that you try carbon dosing in order to 'kick start' the plants.Rather than nitrate dosing or allowing nitrate to build up.
 
Thanks, 3d-Reef, I will. I have a CO2 setup for my freshwater planted tank, which I originally bought for my calcium reactor for my reef tank.

I don't plan to add nitrate until my seagrass gets nitrate limited. This shouldn't happen until some time after my sand bed matures and/or I add fish (and feed them) and phosphate levels rise, throwing the N to P ratio out of balance.

I've been thinking about how to make my old trickle filter adjustable. As the seagrass gets established, I expect it's ability to uptake nitrate will grow. It would be cool to make the trickle tower 'modular', so I could add height and bio balls as needed.
 
It may need inorganic C after it has become established...I was suggesting dosing organic C until does become established.Like what happens in an older seagrass bed.The grass provides OC to the bacteria,in turn the bacteria release P too the plants,and denitrification of N03.
 
What would you suggest I dose as a good source of organic carbon? Or maybe something I could include in the substrate from the start?
 
About two and a half years ago I completely tore down the grass tank one week and set it back up the next weekend with new sand(above ratio). I used plain 'ole white vinegar for dosing.Dosing to the water column does make it's way down into the substrate to an extent.
With in two months I had new shoots coming up.
 
Thanks, 3d-Reef. Oh yeah, vinegar! I've read a good bit about the carbon-dosing craze. A very interesting concept-and proven to work if done right. I had thought about applying the concept to feeding sponges and gorgonians and possibly flame scallops, instead of exporting the excess bacteria with a skimmer.

I had not thought of carbon dosing (other than CO2) for my grass. So you think it would help establish the beneficial bacteria that assists the roots with nutrient uptake? Did you dose vinegar right after you re-set up you grass tank? Did you use a skimmer for export?
 
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Well...if you think about it.An establish grass bed produces two things during photosynthesis.Oxygen and sugars (organic carbon).
When you transplant plants there is a time when they are in shock.During this time frame they have to use up stored carbohydrates to convert No3 into a useable form (NH3). With the help of bacteria of course.

My thought was to supply the organic carbon so the reserves would not be used up too fast so the plant won't slowly die over a couple of months and it would also help get the bacteria to become established.
Does that make sense?
 
Thanks, 3d-Reef. Oh yeah, vinegar! I've read a good bit about the carbon-dosing craze. A very interesting concept-and proven to work if done right. I had thought about applying the concept to feeding sponges and gorgonians and possibly flame scallops, instead of exporting the excess bacteria with a skimmer.

I had not thought of carbon dosing (other than CO2) for my grass. So you think it would help establish the beneficial bacteria that assists the roots with nutrient uptake? Did you dose vinegar right after you re-set up you grass tank? Did you use a skimmer for export?

Yeah,I started dosing vinegar a few days after I set it back up.Yes I do run a skimmer for export of the excess.
 
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