Caribbean Biotope Seagrass Tank

I googled glutamic acid for seagrass and found a study. Here is a pertinent quote: "A noteworthy observation was the inability of in vitro cultures of H. engelmannii to grow when nitrate was supplied as the only nitrogen source, whereas growth was supported by glutamic acid or ammonium. H. engelmannii showed better growth when the nitrogen source was provided as glutamic acid as opposed to ammonium."

From Sarah Lardizabal's excellent article on seagrasses: "While biologists typically provide nitrogen to plants with ammonium or organic sources like glutamic acid, both of these tend to spark nuisance algae blooms in aquaria. Aquarists are lucky to have access to several forms of nitrate salts from a few different sources, making nitrate additions practical and simple."

From another study (not related to glutamic acid): "Seagrasses physically and chemically change the sediment through release of oxygen, decomposition of subterranean parts, and by bioturbidation through growth of their roots and rhizomes (Moriarty and Boon, 1989). Chemical changes wrought by the below-ground components are critical for survival because the high levels of sulfides in the anoxic sediments are toxic to the plant... Ammonium is the most abundant form of nitrogen in the sediment. It is dissolved in the interstitial water (5 to 100 ""M to 15mM), bound with organic matter and clays (exchangeable)…Based on growth rates, seagrasses require large amounts of fixed nitrogen (10 to 450 mg N m-2 d-I), with ammonium being the preferred source. By contrast, nitrate and nitrite concentrations are usually low «5 ""M) in the anaerobic sediments, presumably due to their rapid utilization by denitrifying and other anaerobic bacteria...However, in the Indian River Lagoon, ammonium was found to be the limiting nutrient during peak growth of Syringodium filiforme. Mean concentrations of carbon, nitrogen, and phosphorus in the leaves of 27 species of seagrasses were 34, 2, and 0.2%, respectively, of the dry weight giving a mean C:N:P ratio of 474:24:1."

Lot's of good info. I also found that you can buy glutamic acid (a.k.a MSG) as a nutritional supplement in tablets. Maybe I'll try pushing some of those into the substrate, and avoid the algae problems mentioned. Again, it would be great to find preferred nutrient sources specific to manatee grass. I may have to experiment with different nutrients to see what my grass prefers. I could push different nutrients into the substrate in deliniated sections to find out…SCIENCE!
 
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I bought some glutamic acid in pill form. I pushed one deep into the substrate in my fresh water planted tank. I look forward to seeing what happens. I've been looking for ammonium bicarbinate as well to try as an ammonia source. It's also known as Baker's Ammonia. It's a very old school leavener. Seems like it might be a great combination with ammonia and carbon.
 
I will report my findings. So far after 24 hours, no change visible. I put it in the substrate next to a plant that's never really taken off, growth-wise. It's doing fine with new leaves and flowers, but it never really got huge. I suspect it may be nutrient limited. With CO2 addition, and I imagine plenty of phosphate, I would guess it's nitrogen limited. If so, the glutamic acid should give it a boost, unless the ammonia reaches toxic levels.

I got the glutamic acid pills at a health food store in Boulder, Co. 100 500 mg tablets cost $9.48 with tax. Not cheap, but I paid for instant gratification/convenience. Picked it up when I was running errands. I hope to find a small amount locally of the 'bakers ammonia' as well.

I have found good sources online for glutamic acid and ammonium bicarbinate.
 
OK, it's been a week since I pushed the glutamic acid tablet (deep) into the substrate of my freshwater planted tank. I had put it close to a plant that wasn't doing much growth-wise. At first glance I saw no change. Then I looked a bit more. I did notice that the leaves looked a bit greener and lighter. They tended to grow darker and darker until they were brown. The whole plant just looks 'newer', or maybe it's mind playing tricks on me. The next closest plant seems to be doing well too, but I'm not sure it's because of the GA or not.

So, so far, not a lot of change. But 1 week isn't much time. I'm sure that when I get some positive change it will be obvious.

No bad changes either. No algae bloom and no evidence of ammonia toxicity.
 
Wow, I just found this old thread:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1160264

Beautiful tank with red macros and seagrasses. Very good read as well with system details. I especially like the 'nitrate factory'.

It's funny too because I was thinking of doing a mass of red macros among my fake mangrove root, to balance with my planned 2/3 substrate covering of seagrass. after seeing this setup, I'm even more excited!
 
That is one beautiful tank for sure!
I've been looking around town here for some of the glutamic tablets but haven't been able to find any yet.The one store is looking into ordering some,but no luck so far.Thanks to Your research,You have inspired Me to try something else.:reading::idea:
 
You might have better luck online. Lots of nutritional supplement stores there. I saw it in powdered form as well, which you could put into gel caps yourself. I've had no luck finding ammonium bicarbinate (baker's ammonia) locally. I even went to a bakery and they'd never heard of it!

On RedMangrove's tank, I thought it was a great idea to make his own leaf litter compost. He did several cool things and experimented to get his desired results. A fine example for us all!
 
I got in touch with gulf coast eco systems about an outdoor grow out tank im going to set up. They were very helpful with my question and the had mentioned an outdoor seagrass tank they had. Might hit them up and ask how they do it.
 
Awesome, thanks joekidwell! I will talk to them. I already look at their site everyday, to see what's in stock. It would be very helpful to know how they set up their seagrass system, since I will likely be buying my seagrass from them. Mimicking their conditions would smooth the transition from their system to mine, giving the grasses a better chance of survival/flourishing.
 
It's been 2 weeks since I dosed the substrate in my FW planted tank, with 1 500mg pill of glutamic acid. Glutamic acid is what I'm testing as a source of ammonia/nitrogen. Given that my tank is CO2 injected (carbon) and I feed the fish well (phosphate), I'm thinking the plants could be nitrogen-limited.

I had not noticed any real changes in the plant closest to insertion point. However, a plant more than a foot away is suddenly bigger and healthier. This is a very mature planted tank, and the root systems of the plants are extensive. So this is pretty good indication that it's working. Another plus is there is no uptick in algae at this time, which I think indicates it at least currently is confined to the substrate. On the other hand, the tank is getting a bit overgrown, so if the glutamic acid has leached out into the bulk water, I might not know it because the plants are sucking it up faster than the algae can get to it. But since only one plant is showing improvement I tend to doubt it.

The tricky part is transferring what I'm learning from testing on a mature fresh water planted tank, to a brand-new saltwater planted tank. The nutrient balance will be completely different. With the nitrogen cycle starting up, there should be plenty of nitrogen available, I'll have CO2 injection going and also possibly a carbonate source, so phosphate could be the limiting nutrient at first. That will change quickly when I add animals and feed them.

Anyway it's fun, geaky stuff!
 
If you're starting up with dry rock, chances are there will be phosphate at the beginning. My older live rock is looking good in the new DT, but the dry rock I added is crimson red. Your challenge will be to get the phos to the macros. Next setup I do, I'm going to condition my dry rock and try to skip this part of new tank syndrome lol.
 
Ok, I've got some old coral skeletons I'm planning to use as buried base rock to support my live rock. Maybe I'll put them in the curing vessel with the live rock. I'm already putting some sand in there to get some critters and bacteria.

I also plan to plant the tank heavily from the start to outcompete undesirable algae.

Thanks for the heads-up.
 
Price of Success?

Price of Success?

I'm running into a bit of a hold-up to this project. Me.

I'm having a hard time taking the next step - breaking down my heavily planted freshwater tank. It would be easier if I could just add a new tank, but my wife has me on a strict one-tank-only deal. It's a fair deal.

It's tough uprooting happy plants! I need to so I can start making the mods on my tank. Got to install my coast2coast overflow, set up the sump, and the fuge and install the new plumbing.

The fake mangrove root is just about done.

Can't start the fake mudbank until I've done the overflow, since they'll be integrated.

Gotta take that next step"¦
 
It's going well, thanks. if a little slowly. I've made the leap and pulled the plants, just waiting to hook up with my LFS owner to finish the deal.

I've secured salt mix and 80 pounds of very fine oolite sand. Next step is to install overflow, sump, refugium and plumbing. Plus I have reconfigure my closed loop plumbing as well. I've got a lot of work to do!
 
Sounds like it's going OK.Rounding everything up for a project is usually the slowest part for Me.

I went too Jackson City,Tenn. a couple of weeks ago for a Petsmart install and found some glutamic acid,but the jar was to big to get into My carry-on bag for the flight home.
So today I was headed over too Petsmart on the east side of Wichita for some repairs and found a Vitiman Shoppe that had some.:smokin:
I bought a bottle and put one 500mg tablet in the grass bed next to the glass so I could watch it.So we'll see what happens.:uhoh3::D
 
Yes it is taking a while. I try to move forward, if only a little, everyday.

Tank's empty and I think my overflow is ready for install. I need to have it in place, so I can start building the fake mudbank. Plus there's the rest of the plumbing. I thought I had settled on a configuration, but now I'm reconsidering.

Took the liberty of temporarily installing the fake mangrove root, just to see how it looked in the tank. Not bad. Maybe a little larger than it needs to be, but can I work with it. In my head, the final product looks spectacular!

Glad you found the glutamic acid. Cool idea inserting it right by the glass. I look forward to hearing your results.
 
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