Chaeto vs. VSV for ULNS

[Bolo Tran]

I'm currently running a five with chaeto for my 120 SPs. I'm trying to achieve ULNS that's becoming increasingly popular but I'm just a bit confused.

Ideally running a fuge with chaeto is supposed to lower phosphates and nitrates but can it is sufficient for ULNS or can it only be achieved by dosing vodka or Prodibio or Zeovit, etc?

 

[Jeff]

usually people run Zeo, Ultralith, Prodibio, or one of the other products to take it to the next step. Chaeto, live rock and sand take it only so far.

 

[Salamander]

I've been thinking my ULNS is the reason for my pale colors. SO I've been trying to overfeed etc and colors are coming back. Is there another way?

 

[onano]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13781452#post13781452 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Salamander
I've been thinking my ULNS is the reason for my pale colors. SO I've been trying to overfeed etc and colors are coming back. Is there another way?

I was feeling the same way (ULNS and pale colors) I have stopped running phosban and upped my feedings and my colors darkened up. I am adding some brightwells products as my only supplements (potassion, vitamarin C, and aminos). No algae blooms as a result of the overfeeding and added supplements.

 

[sailfintang]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13781452#post13781452 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Salamander
I've been thinking my ULNS is the reason for my pale colors. SO I've been trying to overfeed etc and colors are coming back. Is there another way?

Alot of people will supplement with Amino Acids. They get the color and help provide the nutrients that are missing. You can add more fish as well if you have a light bioload. Fedding more helps too.

 

[plyle02]

IMO, if your fuge is big enough, and you have enough healthy macros going, you can reach a LNS..., one where you could supplement coral feeding foods including reefbooster(prodibio), amino acids, etc... ULNS are really designed for those who want to have lots of fish that eat as often as you want, those who supplement aminos, utilize other coral coloring products, while remaining almost zero on NO3 and PO4. These type of sytems require constant testing and monitoring, as you keep your system on the edge, one mistake could cost you... So, really 2 different approaches IMO... I have done both, and to be quite honest, my colors were never as beautiful when I ran a RDSB fuge... I currently run a ULNS, and have been for my current and previous tank, the colors can become quite beautiful, but I am still learning about running ULNS's.... Currently running Neo-Zeo, was running Prodibio... Good luck either way....

 

[shelburn61]

IME chaeto quits growing before you reach the point of ULNS anyway. A year or so ago I got to the point I was unhappy with pale colors so I added fish and started feeding much more. My colors deepened but NO3 remains undetectable though I'm sure more is there. I think a little N is a good thing, but I may run GFO down the road to keep PO4 down. Chaeto still doesn't grow but I'm dosing vodka to keep dissolved nutrient levels down while allowing for more feeding.

 

[shelburn61]

oops

 

[bogg]

IME the cheato wont get the tank clean enough for uln. That's where the carbon source/ bacteria/ zeo etc. comes in to play.

 

[Bolo Tran]

Now I'm getting the jest of it. So I should ditch the chaeto and start dosing a carbon source. The chaeto gets really messy anyways. Now Im going to have an empty space in my fuge and have no use for it.

Next question arises. What the advantage of dosing VSV(vodka, sugar, vinegar) vs just straight up vodka?

 

[Aqua Keepers]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13784683#post13784683 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Bolo Tran
Now I'm getting the jest of it. So I should ditch the chaeto and start dosing a carbon source. The chaeto gets really messy anyways. Now Im going to have an empty space in my fuge and have no use for it.

Next question arises. What the advantage of dosing VSV(vodka, sugar, vinegar) vs just straight up vodka?

It is believed (not proven) that each of the carbon sources in VSV will fuel a different strand of bacteria preventing a monoculture.

 

[Bolo Tran]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13787894#post13787894 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pito
It is believed (not proven) that each of the carbon sources in VSV will fuel a different strand of bacteria preventing a monoculture.

umm. Is this a good thing or bad? excuse my ignorance

 

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13787894#post13787894 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pito
It is believed (not proven) that each of the carbon sources in VSV will fuel a different strand of bacteria preventing a monoculture.

Multiple carbon sources promote bacterial strain diversity within a biofilm. There's nothing theoretical about this ... the documentation in the literature is quite extensive, and crystal clear. What is utter nonsense is the notion that a single carbon source will generate a competitive exclusion dynamic that will ultimately result in the survival of a single bacterial strain (i.e., a monoculture). Long term dosing of a single carbon source will tend to produce a single dominant strain within the bioflim ... but not to the extinction of all other strains.

Not JMO ... this is the science.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13827134#post13827134 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Bolo Tran
... Is this a good thing or bad? excuse my ignorance

Nothing ignorant in your question at all. The carbon-dosing cyber-reefkeeping discussion is typically long on opinion, and disturbingly short on science.

This is JMO ... :lol:


The trend towards a single dominant strain within a biofilm is a bad thing because no single bacterial strain is genetically coded (i.e., able to synthesize the necessary enzymes and sideophores, and demonstrate adequate Monad kinetics) to do all of the chemical reactions required for the biogeochemically balanced, "low nutrient" water column chemistry that Acropora species, and their allies, prefer. Multiple bacterial strains living in close proximity within a biofilm are required for the symphony of oxidative & reductive chemical reactions that is necessary. The emergence of a single dominant strain screws up the geomicrobiological music.


HTH
:thumbsup:

 

[Aqua Keepers]

Mesocosm, Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Bolo Tran]

So in order to prevent a monoculture, would a solution or a wiser path to take would be to dose prodibio?

 

[corvettecris]

If you are interested in learning about VSV, this is a neat article. Short and to the point. Probably not the only literature you want to read onthe subject, but great for getting you started if you are sure you wanna try it. I have with good success.

http://glassbox-design.com/2008/achieved-through-observation-and-experimentation/

 

[jonrx]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13780908#post13780908 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jeff
usually people run Zeo, Ultralith, Prodibio, or one of the other products to take it to the next step. Chaeto, live rock and sand take it only so far.

Pretty much. I kept my Chaeto when going to the ULNS based tank mainly for pod breeding. Not like it can do much more than that with Zeo!

 

[BradR]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14483277#post14483277 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by corvettecris
If you are interested in learning about VSV, this is a neat article. Short and to the point. Probably not the only literature you want to read onthe subject, but great for getting you started if you are sure you wanna try it. I have with good success.

http://glassbox-design.com/2008/achieved-through-observation-and-experimentation/

Thanks for the link. Was wondering though about having to dose the "Bio Digest" bacteria every 15 days per the article. That makes zero sense to me as the bacteria should be able to reproduce just fine once introduced.

 

[corvettecris]

I thought that too, and really dont know why that is recommended, but I do know that all ULNS systems require a regular introduction of bacteria, including Neo Zeo, Zeovit, etc...

 

[stunreefer]

Re: Chaeto vs. VSV for ULNS

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13780864#post13780864 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Bolo Tran
Ideally running a fuge with chaeto is supposed to lower phosphates and nitrates but can it is sufficient for ULNS or can it only be achieved by dosing vodka or Prodibio or Zeovit, etc?

Yes it can be sufficient, but the speed and how low the ULNS runs will differ from bacterial driven systems. Most times people will utilize chaeto in a fuge (or other caulerpa) along with GFO in order to maintain ULNS. Other equipment such as denitrifyers can also be implemented...