Cincerblock and concrete

[karimwassef]

Oh and 5k is alot for a small job but bigger groups don't like small jobs because its hard to justify. Try finding a one man show or similar, you can probably tell by the website. Also you can find a residential home builder and ask for a referal. If you where local to me I could shoot you a name and it bet it would be under 1k, about 800 for something like this to give you an idea of an order of magnitude number

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Thanks. I got some references locally but most do inspections for day-to-day. I'll call around.

 

[Clowning_Around]

That's what I meant by taking the subgrade reaction factor into account. That's one of the missing elects and I did ask the subdivision planning enginer for the soil report. If not, I was planning on a geotechnical testing lab... they need to bore into the ground to take samples and I'd need to coordinate it with the builder.

Borings are invasive and added expense/ may not be necessary. They can probably just do a compaction test using a nuclear density test machine, to it sticks a probe in the ground and determines what you have. Ask the company you hire what they recommend given the circumstances. Borings will however tell you the soil composition at the various depths where's the density test will not. If you dont have a good density or assume such a proctor compaction test in the lab can be done to tell you tell you the optimum moisture/ compaction for your condition. Again the company you hire can discuss and explain this to you, it should be part of a free consult to earn your business....

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[Clowning_Around]

you mentioned a builder, are you hiring someone or diy? If you are hiring someone look for a contractor that is of the 'design- build ' type, they will be an added benefit. This type has in house or design consultants (Arch n Engineers) on retainer or similar, they can help you with a turnkey solution and look for cost effective solution as well.

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[karimwassef]

I am not pouring a 1200 sqft foundation...
Yes. I'm hiring a concrete foundation company - I'll ask about engineering services.

The builder I referenced is actually my house builder. The sunroom is on the same lot.

 

[Sharpimage]

Also, when they do building pads for houses, at least down here, they only do the pad for the building. The yard is not necessarily good building material. The Geo tech report for the development may only encompass the footprint of the house.

 

[karimwassef]

The lot isn't super large. The sunroom is 16 feet from the house. Just long enough for a nice walkway.

The other side has a hill with heavy wall against a large parking lot for the fire station... lots of heavy vehicles on that side. I'll post some pictures.

 

[ericarenee]

Reading thru all of the replies ,

My TWO Pennies.. Yes i know a thing or two about Concrete and building on it.What i do not know off hand is the average debt of footers in texas.

I think cost,Safety and Timing. You are better off laying out on the ground where your tanks and Tank supports are going to be. Say the block under your main tank , under your raised storage tanks and the corners and paremter of the large but shallow sump..

DIG OUT those areas to footer depth . it will be around 30 inches below grade. pour footings with rebar .....
Block up from the footer thru to height you need these colums . pour the blocks solid at the rebar locations..Will need to be approx 2feet apart and on each side of the corners ..

Pour 4 to 6 inch deep concrete lab for the building itself making the edge of the lab deep enough to handle the weight of the structure.. This will be the Strongest Its how Buildings are built.. High rise construction, Bridges , and everything else sit on concrete footings below Grade.. NOT CONCRETE SLABS ON GRADE.You are not building a house. your Building a room with structure in it that is heavy..

Refer back to the image i posted......

i Agree a engineer is not needed , a Concrete Contractor can help you with the Concrete / block part. Tell them you will sign off on it taking there responsibility out but ask them for specs in english so you can be assured they are giving you sound device..

The above design will give each item inside your structure its own foundation, This will keep the slab from having uneven pressure...

Again good luck and sorry if this is really just duplicate of the last post .

 

[Sharpimage]

Reading thru all of the replies ,

My TWO Pennies.. Yes i know a thing or two about Concrete and building on it.What i do not know off hand is the average debt of footers in texas.

I think cost,Safety and Timing. You are better off laying out on the ground where your tanks and Tank supports are going to be. Say the block under your main tank , under your raised storage tanks and the corners and paremter of the large but shallow sump..

DIG OUT those areas to footer depth . it will be around 30 inches below grade. pour footings with rebar .....
Block up from the footer thru to height you need these colums . pour the blocks solid at the rebar locations..Will need to be approx 2feet apart and on each side of the corners ..

Pour 4 to 6 inch deep concrete lab for the building itself making the edge of the lab deep enough to handle the weight of the structure.. This will be the Strongest Its how Buildings are built.. High rise construction, Bridges , and everything else sit on concrete footings below Grade.. NOT CONCRETE SLABS ON GRADE.You are not building a house. your Building a room with structure in it that is heavy..

Refer back to the image i posted......

i Agree a engineer is not needed , a Concrete Contractor can help you with the Concrete / block part. Tell them you will sign off on it taking there responsibility out but ask them for specs in english so you can be assured they are giving you sound device..

The above design will give each item inside your structure its own foundation, This will keep the slab from having uneven pressure...

Again good luck and sorry if this is really just duplicate of the last post .

This is more or less what I said. But a mat slab can be used. They put mat slabs under vaults in banks, for reference. And I am a shell contractor, in Florida. I doubt any shell contractor wil give you specs. It would be a liablitiy issue.

 

[Clowning_Around]

A matt slab is effectively one large footing. And by the way footer depth is usually dictated by frostline depth. With an interior slab that may be a moot point...

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[ericarenee]

A matt slab is effectively one large footing. And by the way footer depth is usually dictated by frostline depth. With an interior slab that may be a moot point...

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ONLY Partly True . footing debt is required to be below frost line. But also require deeper debt to more compressed earth depending on the weight .
You cant put a multi story home on a slab with no footings at its structural points under exterior walls , under post where load bearing beams to support upper walls and roofs. These areas will require a slab of 18-30 inches. In some areas MUCH Deeper. Even when its acceptable to build a structure on top of a SLAB ONLY. The perimeter of the Slab and any load bearing ares are dug out to create additional support . Making these areas deeper and wider. often with rebar.

I just in my mind seeing several things in the design of this build different weight and weight distribution requirements .putting each of these on there own footing will protect the project when the SLAB Cracks.. the slab will crack.. especially with long term uneven load with no footing..

Anyway ..... Again the above is From my Experience Building high rise construction,Retail build outs ,schools and everything in between. I do not know all of the Ratios on depth and weight to strength numbers , I just know the Requirements From Structural drawings i have build over and over everywhere in the US. They are all Very Similar . most Concrete work almost Identical with the exception of Depth width and Reinforcement requirements..

 

[Sharpimage]

I think you have gotten some very good advice here. Good luck with the build and keep us posted
Dan

 

[Clowning_Around]

Well there is a difference between a slab and a matt slab. I have been involved with matt slabs that are 7 ft thick... no footings or beams it depends on how things are designed. With a matt slab you limit differential settlement which would likely be paramount for the intended purpose, not that it cant be done by other designs... Oh and your fooling yourself if you think you can protect concrete from cracking its inevitable / all concrete cracks its how you manage it that is important.

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[Sharpimage]

The only real difference between a mat slab and a footer is the top elevation and a slab is finished. I have completed footers that are 400 sf. So we are really talking about the same thing. He may not be able to do a mat slab due to frost level, but I have no idea.

 

[karimwassef]

The frost line in Dallas is 10". We don't really get that cold here. However, the soil construction is clay and the depth of the footers is usually 24" down.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/dallas/2576507-how-deep-dig-deck-footing-10-a.html

 

[karimwassef]

I'm picking up on the lingo and researching to make sure I ask for the right structure (or asking the right questions) when I talk to a foundation engineer or contractor.

Here's my understanding:

A mat foundation (also called a raft foundation) is basically a flat sheet with deeper structures at the edges of the foundation. It can be reinforced with thicker sections where the high pressure loads are and those sections are tied into the "raft" with rebar and mesh.

The foundation with concrete footers is basically sitting on vertical concrete footers with vertical rebar supporting the heaviest sections of the slab and those are tied into the slab's horizontal rebar - basically heavy duty piers. This allows the rest of the slab to be thinner.

Did I get that right?

My confusion - Dan recommended 12"x12" concrete pillars. Erica recommended footers. What's the difference? Or Dan - did I confuse the slab construction with the vertical pillar construction to hold the tanks up?

 

[Sharpimage]

You have it mostly correct. A mat footing can be one solid mat the same thickness throughout, or it can vary in depth due to loading.

A footer that is below ground is like 2 foot wide by 1 foot deep for as long as needed, like the perimeter of your house. They can also be pads, say 4 feet square and 12 inch's deep for a column to sit on.

We were arguing about which foundation is best, and either will work.

I recommended poured columns from the footer or slab going up to hold your water that is 6 foot in the air. I, persoa preference, would go with all concrete construction over block in this application. I do build bUildings and use block everyday and know that it certainly can be done with block, but in my opinion concrete would suit this application better.

 

[karimwassef]

so that others can benefit also - I like pictures... easier to understand

this way, we have a shared language.

By the way, I have months to prepare and understand what I need - this is not an unplanned project

 

[karimwassef]

You have it mostly correct. A mat footing can be one solid mat the same thickness throughout, or it can vary in depth due to loading.

A footer that is below ground is like 2 foot wide by 1 foot deep for as long as needed, like the perimeter of your house. They can also be pads, say 4 feet square and 12 inch's deep for a column to sit on.

We were arguing about which foundation is best, and either will work.

I recommended poured columns from the footer or slab going up to hold your water that is 6 foot in the air. I, persoa preference, would go with all concrete construction over block in this application. I do build bUildings and use block everyday and know that it certainly can be done with block, but in my opinion concrete would suit this application better.

Ok. So your foundation recommendation is to pour it thick enough overall to support the weight. Erica's recommendation is to pour pillars/footers under the heavy pressure areas, and the rest of the slab can be thinner.

I'll draw up both versions, so I make sure I understand both.

Thank you all for this help, by the way. It will make me a more informed consumer when talking to contractors and engineers and should help me find a better and more cost effective solution.

 

[Pcon426]

Sorry if this has come up before, but why don't you just pour concrete into a form for the sump and support platforms? Or sink the sump into the floor?

Seems to me a more integrated solution would be better seeing as it is a bespoke building. You can even tie the forms into the concrete slab.

I really think the foundation type and reinforcements are something you should consult a soil engineer about, that will be the way to determine how much foundation and where.

 

[karimwassef]

Sinking the sump was a consideration a while ago, but given the complexity of the slab as it is, and the weight of the other tanks needing support, I felt that it was more prudent to start with the strongest straightest and simplest slab and then build on that.

Going for all concrete forms is also a consideration. But given the complexity so far, I'm actually reconsidering large spill tanks instead. That would reduce the complexity to the load strength of the slab underneath and then the support structure overhead.

I was hoping that an integrated concrete sump would simplify things but it doesn't look like that's achievable... it reduced some difficulty and complexity but created its own.

There is a 1300 gal spill containment tank I'll look at fitting in. I may need two...

Also looking at integrating two of the surge tanks into the display again to reduce the stress immediately under that platform by 50%. It would distribute the weight over the tank instead, but what's another 700gals in a 1600 gal tank?... I can also add more supports under the tank without being cramped by the sump location.

So plenty of redesign coming up.