Cincerblock and concrete

ok. due to my natural discomfort with concrete, I've decided to simplify and go to mediums I'm more comfortable with. I framed out and installed my in-wall tank and I have 2 x 100 gallons tanks suspended (no supports underneath) on a 2x4 frame with plywood bottoms and 3/8" screw rod into the ceiling joists...

so - since I'm starting from scratch - all I have is a steel frame and a concrete floor (TBD), I decided to go with wood. It's the only medium cheap and strong enough that I'm comfortable with.

so....

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/0_zpsuyblpyvo.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/0_zpsuyblpyvo.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 0_zpsuyblpyvo.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/1_zpsybteiv92.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/1_zpsybteiv92.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 1_zpsybteiv92.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/2_zpswidwgawh.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/2_zpswidwgawh.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 2_zpswidwgawh.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/3_zpsqqm6yyli.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/3_zpsqqm6yyli.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 3_zpsqqm6yyli.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/4_zpsmc1hulpw.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/4_zpsmc1hulpw.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 4_zpsmc1hulpw.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/5_zpsd5hv5qrq.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/5_zpsd5hv5qrq.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 5_zpsd5hv5qrq.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/6_zps0hdxcuan.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/6_zps0hdxcuan.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 6_zps0hdxcuan.jpg"/></a>

The 2x12 joists will do the heavy lifting. The span is 18' with a center brace at 8' from the right end.

I had to raise the reservoir even further to get the front joist to clear the surge containers (getting them in position is possible now).

The platform for the surge tanks will only need to handle two tanks - so that's 650gallons = 5500lbs. The platform is 3'x8' and I've doubled up on the vertical studs.

Yes - the center wood support will be in water and so the whole thing will be epoxied before assembly, and yes - that one section will not be bolted into the concrete foundation.

And no more concrete sump - going with large plastic basins.

It was a pain feathering it out to this level, but I felt it was necessary... even though the project is still months away.

But now I can calculate the load on the slab and get back to making sure it can handle the weight without cracking.
 
 
the structure's frame is designed to handle 90mph winds so the steel/glass panels are 4' x 6' on the sides (for reference)
 
I had to go back to the drawing board after completing the wood frame. The loads were still too high.

So - I increased the cinderblock support under the display tank and changed the frame into a box room with 8 ceiling joists (2x12s) that span the 20' room. I also added headers, cripples, noggins and double studs where I wanted more strength. I put the "submerged" center supports in a plastic box with concrete and epoxy to seal. I don't think it's necessary, but I decided to keep it in.

The weight is now distributed across a much larger surface area and the load stresses have all dropped under 10psi. There are only two heavy spots - one under the display tank back (where the in-tank surge tanks are). This is ~ 10psi. The rest is 6 psi or much lower.

With a highly localized load region, I'd like to throw out an option for a thicker slab in the middle (18" thick) while keeping the rest at 6"...

Erica - please look at my framing - I'm deep in your territory here. :D

Oh - the 12" slab first quote came is at $20,000 - for the slab only... no structure.

So - picture to follow:
 
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Here's the view from underneath... the green wood is going to be tied to the concrete slab.
The sides will be screwed into the steel frame or connected to sides that will be.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/8_zpscql7q6zc.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/8_zpscql7q6zc.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 8_zpscql7q6zc.jpg"/></a>

I know this is hard to see, so I'll try to take more shots to make it easier to see errors or improvements.

here it is without the plywood platforms:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/4_zpsurdpohbi.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/4_zpsurdpohbi.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 4_zpsurdpohbi.jpg"/></a>

and this shows the steel frame around the room:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/3_zpsxlati9bj.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/3_zpsxlati9bj.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 3_zpsxlati9bj.jpg"/></a>

and here it is skinned with 0.42" 30x60 Hardiebacker board:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/5_zps6cilco4r.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/5_zps6cilco4r.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 5_zps6cilco4r.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/6_zpsma6zpkjl.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/6_zpsma6zpkjl.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 6_zpsma6zpkjl.jpg"/></a>

and here's I get from a loading:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/000_zpsztonvbsf.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/000_zpsztonvbsf.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 000_zpsztonvbsf.jpg"/></a>

with the concept of the different slab thicknesses:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/7_zpsdx2fq14v.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/7_zpsdx2fq14v.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 7_zpsdx2fq14v.jpg"/></a>

the slab is 6". the skirt is 2' (30" total) deeper and 1' wide. the thickened area is 1' deeper (18" total) in the middle.

so here's the "proposed" thickened areas:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/1_zpsatrtqe6a.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/1_zpsatrtqe6a.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 1_zpsatrtqe6a.jpg"/></a>
 
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I realize it can be exhausting to look at all this - (imagine going through the design and drawing)... I really do appreciate the help.
 
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/0_zpsvv5zvoaz.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/0_zpsvv5zvoaz.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 0_zpsvv5zvoaz.jpg"/></a>

so.. since my highest pressure (except one region) is now <868 lb/ft2 (6psi), I should be able to get away with 6" thickness...

The two back legs of the tank are at 1360lb/ft2.. that would require 16", but it's a pretty small region. Maybe two pillars right there would be a reasonable solution?

(that assumes that the wood framing is able to distribute the weight as expected).

so - maybe:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/11_zpsgoynp7yw.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/11_zpsgoynp7yw.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 11_zpsgoynp7yw.jpg"/></a>
 
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Based on your graphic out looks like your using what's referred too as a pre-engineered metal building. If thats the case I would not connect your framing to it, instead I would leave it independent right inside. P.E.M.B. are designed extremely tight with little safety factor right up to code minimums with high deflection numbers (like L/180 vs L/600). It's for these reasons why they are so efficient and economical, especially for there intended purpose. If you connect your structure, and its designed such that it can take the load it will likely still have a lot of movement which will telegraph through and given the nature of glass could be a bad thing quick. For example this is a common challenge with these type structures when brick veneeres are desired, the P.E.M.B. engineer says its fine because it meets code minimums for (safety) but doesnt meet the architects minimum needs (aesthetics) so the brick cracks (aesthetics) from movement but doesnt fall (safety). My point is these type of structures are designed to resist minimum wind loads etc, but that doesnt mean they wont have a lot of movement doing so, so don't tie into the shell rather remain independent with you critical structure.


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Actually the steel frame is prefabricated but the wind and snow load are custom inputs. As I increase wind load, the number of vertical and horizontal steel members changes and so does the cost.

The current structure is designed to 90mph loads but I've run it up to 150 to see what changes. It's also not "cheap",:D

Current design is ~ $13K

https://www.versatube.com/design-your-own/?id=151529

I've been looking at others who have put them up with videos on YouTube and researching bad reviews, etc... so far, it looks like a decent product.

Basically I built a wood room inside a steel room. Both should be solid... but I don't have to tie them together, I guess. Need to give it more thought.

As far as wind loading... the weather in Dallas is from the south, so 95% of the time, it's coming straight north facing the front glass doors on the smaller 25' face. This was intentional so the long axis of the structure lines up with this flow.
 
I can increase the snow load to 75lbs and the wind load to 175mph

https://www.versatube.com/design-your-own/?id=153039

It's $5K more and the frame weight has increased too to 5700lbs but it's distributed over the perimeter so it should be fine. The panels go from 4' x 6' to 4'x4' (need to double check final dims) so that's a little less light.

it may be worth it. I'll have to redraw the structure.
 
You are going to need a building permit to build this. Which means an architect and engineer to design it. You could run the numbers a thousand ways, but in the end an engineer is going to have to stamp it and put his name on it. Which means he will design it the way he wants. You have a good start, but you are wasting your time trying to fine tune it at this point. You have the basics correct, bit the engineer will have the final say. Just trying to save you some time. It is clear you have put in quite a bit.
 
Actually, since it's not a residential area and it is more than 10' from the house, it needs a detached garage permit only. And since the garage comes pre-engineered with documentation for the city permit, I really don't need anything else. The slab will be built to the engineering drawings from the garage manufacturer or greater.

Check out their site... it's great!

There's no permitting for the ability to hold an aquarium or tanks inside it... that's all part of my private use of the garage. So the only variables are (1) whether the wood framing and cinderblock will carry and distribute the weight of the tanks to the slab and (2) if the slab is solid and will support the load.

And those two are what I'm looking for feedback on at this point :D
 
karimwassef said:
Actually the steel frame is prefabricated but the wind and snow load are custom inputs. As I increase wind load, the number of vertical and horizontal steel members changes and so does the cost.
Click to expand...

YEP same difference

The current structure is designed to 90mph loads but I've run it up to 150 to see what changes. It's also not "cheap",:D
Click to expand...
yea 90, 150 etc but at what importance factor and deflection value? Meaning 90mph hits building it racks building 2 feet out of plumb that can be considered ok with some criteria bit thats not what you want obviously.

And 13k while it may sound like a lot of money, for a steel structure this size it is cheap, price it with conventional steel...



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I forgot to mention the 13k includes the engineering for this type, so with regard to my comment you have to compare the conventional steel and the applicable portion of the engineers design fee to get a true apples to apples.

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Sharpimage said:
You are going to need a building permit to build this. Which means an architect and engineer to design it. You could run the numbers a thousand ways, but in the end an engineer is going to have to stamp it and put his name on it. Which means he will design it the way he wants. You have a good start, but you are wasting your time trying to fine tune it at this point. You have the basics correct, bit the engineer will have the final say. Just trying to save you some time. It is clear you have put in quite a bit.
Click to expand...
I agree work on your concept and drive how you want big picture things done and discuss them with your designers, they may even propose some alternate ways that save money adding to the value of their involvement. Just nail down the aspects that are really important to you like x clearance under a tank and not so much about how thick a slab is etc..

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