Cincerblock and concrete

Ok. So going through the last few weeks, I've changed the support structure to reduce the load stresses by a third. I've redesigned the tank flow and given up a foot of tank (140 gals) to do this. I've also worked out a conventional wood structure that is used to carry the weight of a house. The ceiling joist, stud and rafter design is used in my current house and carries the complete weight of two floors and the roof.

If it wasn't for your help, I would still have an unwieldy and overstressed design. So - thank you.

So - I'm an engineer myself and I've built and helped build large projects before. I tend to design, analyze and calculate way ahead of the execution date to get as much input and learn as much as possible.

I haven't actually built my house with my own hand (it was a custom), but I worked with the engineers, architects and the building contractors to get what I want. I designed it on a blank page starting with easements and build line restrictions (just as I'm doing here). Having gone through that and helped others with actual building, I'm not easily intimidated. While the architect gave it his blessing, and tweaked a few variables- my design was basically unchanged.

I am personally disappointed by contractors and firms who are willing to charge exorbitant profit for work that I've already done. I'll continue to look for a structural engineer I can trust and work with, but I'm not giving up.
 
Now - back to the design. :D (just needed to get that last bit off my chest)

On the slab, assuming that I have calculated the pressures correctly, would that slab thickness support the loads? If not, I'll go for the individual pillar designs. I just thought the modulated slab thickness would be cheaper since I got the heaviest load in one zone, but still made it uniform.

On the pillars- these have a foot diameter at the top but the load "point" on the slab is actually made up of 4 cinder blocks side by side ~ 30" x 15". Would I need two pillars for each of these 4 block regions or would one work?

On the framing and loading: there are five loads:

1. The tank: the tank is unusual because it has a load on one side that is substantially higher than the other. I made the extreme assumption that the blocks there will need to support that load (worst case). This is because the weight is actually passed through the sides to the tank floor (3" of stacked plywood) onto the blocks below. I am supporting it with 8 cinderblocks side by side. I think this will work - but that's one concern.

2. The surge tanks (drums). I'm using the same framing construction I used in my current tank (4' x 8') for this narrow stress point (3' x 8') with 2x4s and plywood. It's close to the ground and tied into the green lumber (on two sides) that will be attached to the foundation. I do need to leave a wide opening (5') for the settling tank underneath and that's worrisome, but with horizontal 2x4s on their side at the top, I think it'll distribute fine.

3. The raised reservoir. This 500 gallon tank is where I went with heavy framing support that should hold up a house. Traditional 2x4 studs with 2x12 joists should be more than enough based on my experience. I'm using 4 (! )joists to span the 20' and then 2x4s at 16" or less to bring the weight to them, with a plywood base on top. I think it's overkill actually but I'm open to feedback. The "leg" in the water is more overkill and I'm hoping Erica or others will say it's not needed.

4. The raised IBCs are similar weight and height so I used the same design as the reservoir. I did put these almost back to back so the weight distribution in around the thick slab area.

5. The sump is now all plastic containers on the concrete floor. The weight distribution is proportional to water level and at 20", it was minimal... anyone with a tank in their house is doing more, especially if they're putting it on a stand with feet.
 
on attached wood to steel. It may be that the steel deflects the wood, or that the wood stabilized and supports the steel. The steel is skinned with steel and has ribs between the 6' sections so I don't think there is a foot of deflection ( :D )... but there will be some.

I need to have an internal wall anyway, so the wood frame was going to happen all along. The only question is whether tying the two together is a net stabilizing design element or if it will just transfer the wind live loading and create dynamic stresses on the wood frame that's holding up the raised tanks. Given that the steel is there to protect from the elements, and the wood frame supports the guts, I'm ok allowing the two to move independently - like a snail with a hard shell that moves independent of the soft squishy parts instead - except the soft parts have a skeleton too.
 
maybe I should start a new thread for the wood frame? The display tank is the only part with cinderblocks now and the only concrete is the foundation.
 
Karim, Looking @ the pic of the proposed thickened areas -- The 2 narrow 7' lengths would make me nervous because if for some reason things don't line up exactly you will have a failure point. Better to make them wider for a safety factor. IMHO anyway.
 
agreed. That's why I've gone a redesign with the weight distributed more, but also grouped into the center

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/11_zpsgoynp7yw.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/11_zpsgoynp7yw.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 11_zpsgoynp7yw.jpg"/></a>

Now the slab is 6" with a deeper perimeter and a deeper section in the middle 14' x 19'
 
It was painful but getting all loads under 530 lb/ft2 was worth it.

I still need to get a quote for the slab with the deeper section.
 
karimwassef said:
Sinking the sump was a consideration a while ago, but given the complexity of the slab as it is, and the weight of the other tanks needing support, I felt that it was more prudent to start with the strongest straightest and simplest slab and then build on that.

Going for all concrete forms is also a consideration. But given the complexity so far, I'm actually reconsidering large spill tanks instead. That would reduce the complexity to the load strength of the slab underneath and then the support structure overhead.

I was hoping that an integrated concrete sump would simplify things but it doesn't look like that's achievable... it reduced some difficulty and complexity but created its own.

There is a 1300 gal spill containment tank I'll look at fitting in. I may need two...

Also looking at integrating two of the surge tanks into the display again to reduce the stress immediately under that platform by 50%. It would distribute the weight over the tank instead, but what's another 700gals in a 1600 gal tank?... I can also add more supports under the tank without being cramped by the sump location.

So plenty of redesign coming up.
Click to expand...



Earlier you mentioned a "Jacuzzi" for a comparison for the sump... Why not actually use one or a swim spa?
May sound crazy or dumb but you can get hot tubs free on Craigslist daily.... Fish safe, definitely holds water and Pre-plumbed.... Lol


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
karimwassef said:
Here's the view from underneath... the green wood is going to be tied to the concrete slab.
The sides will be screwed into the steel frame or connected to sides that will be.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/8_zpscql7q6zc.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/8_zpscql7q6zc.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 8_zpscql7q6zc.jpg"/></a>

I know this is hard to see, so I'll try to take more shots to make it easier to see errors or improvements.

here it is without the plywood platforms:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/4_zpsurdpohbi.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/4_zpsurdpohbi.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 4_zpsurdpohbi.jpg"/></a>

and this shows the steel frame around the room:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/3_zpsxlati9bj.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/3_zpsxlati9bj.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 3_zpsxlati9bj.jpg"/></a>

and here it is skinned with 0.42" 30x60 Hardiebacker board:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/5_zps6cilco4r.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/5_zps6cilco4r.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 5_zps6cilco4r.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/6_zpsma6zpkjl.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/6_zpsma6zpkjl.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 6_zpsma6zpkjl.jpg"/></a>

and here's I get from a loading:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/000_zpsztonvbsf.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/000_zpsztonvbsf.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 000_zpsztonvbsf.jpg"/></a>

with the concept of the different slab thicknesses:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/7_zpsdx2fq14v.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/7_zpsdx2fq14v.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 7_zpsdx2fq14v.jpg"/></a>

the slab is 6". the skirt is 2' (30" total) deeper and 1' wide. the thickened area is 1' deeper (18" total) in the middle.

so here's the "proposed" thickened areas:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/1_zpsatrtqe6a.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/1_zpsatrtqe6a.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 1_zpsatrtqe6a.jpg"/></a>
Click to expand...



Hi

No heavy professional in this so I don't know the scientific specs ...but have You considered using aluminum for your structure like that used for pool cages, screen rooms etc? It is lighter than wood and stronger and can be cost effective.. Plus always straight and never warped, won't rust, and heck of lot less weight.... I also live in Florida and build screen rooms etc.
possibly not strong enough for your intentions but worthy of asking your engineers....



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
karimwassef said:
I can increase the snow load to 75lbs and the wind load to 175mph

https://www.versatube.com/design-your-own/?id=153039

It's $5K more and the frame weight has increased too to 5700lbs but it's distributed over the perimeter so it should be fine. The panels go from 4' x 6' to 4'x4' (need to double check final dims) so that's a little less light.

it may be worth it. I'll have to redraw the structure.
Click to expand...



Do you get hit by hurricanes in your area?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
I liked concrete because of its long term durability. But this thread showed me that it wasn't practical for tall narrow structures (skyscrapers might disagree :) ) without extensive engineering worth more than the structure.

I'm still reeling from the cost estimates for the slab... best I have found was $13k for a 6" at 49' x 25' (1000 sqft) with a 12" deeper rectangular section (200sqft) in the middle.

I probably spend 40 hours of personal time redesigning the structure so I could put all the weight into that small outline and distribute the load to less than 550lb/ft2.

I need better access to real construction contractors and better structural engineers. The guys that do residential projects expect a 50%+ profit margin even on projects that'll cost over $10k. And those home advisor and Angie's sites are hit and miss, mostly miss at this point.
 
I want a glass side tank..
for the sumps, I'm getting open top tanks. I'll look at jacuzzis for free but I need long narrow structures to fit in my cramped room.
 
Also going with wood under the DT

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/6_zpsirsgc1rk.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/6_zpsirsgc1rk.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 6_zpsirsgc1rk.jpg"></a>

Concrete may be more robust but it's heavy and takes a lot of work. The cinderblocks needed to adequately distribute the load of the DT were nearly 300... so a massive painful waste of time. I'll probably enclose the wood in plywood all around and the epoxy the whole thing.
 
Here's the reduced slab at $13,000 (just slab - not concrete walkways)

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/2_zps55bwhfbb.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/2_zps55bwhfbb.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 2_zps55bwhfbb.jpg"></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/8_zpsqzl3hfem.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/8_zpsqzl3hfem.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 8_zpsqzl3hfem.jpg"></a>
 
The cinderblocks did make it into the tank though :)

Need to carry that vertical tank's 3500lbs of weight. But if I get a lot of concern again, maybe I'll go wood and epoxy there too.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/5_zpsdcvkcxti.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/5_zpsdcvkcxti.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 5_zpsdcvkcxti.jpg"></a>
 
I've gone all wood.. but still thought I'd share this

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/IjikcTxMiak" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/6bpwnzfsuQQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/adgJACNfkkQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

My two cinderblock tall sump doesn't seem so crazy.. :D
 
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