Clean up crew? Water changes ?

[WendyCT]

I have a 2 wonderful female seahorses who live in a 29g tank with a filter and a skimmer. I have a regular small fan I use on top to keep it cool (around 72 degrees). My Nitrite is .25, Nitrate 40-60, pH 7.8, Ammonia .25. I have yet been able to get the Ammonia down lower or the pH higher.. ? Are there things I can add to help it?

With the warmer weather lately I have had to put in about 1g of RO water at night which I purchase from the local fish store (Fintastic) in Manchester, CT.

I have had the tank up and running for about a month now and have not yet done a water change. How often should a water change be done and how much of a water change?

I was wondering also what the ideal clean up crew? I currently have:
2 small blue leg crabs
3 nassarius snails
3 nerites snails
4 other snails that I'm not sure name ("climb" all over the glass)

Is this enough or do I need more? If more, what should I invest in?

I am starting to get a "film" algea? on the glass along with those very tiny spider like jellyfish creatures. Also the filter sponge in the back of the tank is getting a layer of greenish colored algea? gook? on it. Am I suppose to take that off and clean it as well and if so, do I just rinse it under the tap and then replace it?

Sorry for all the questions I just want to make sure I am taking care of them properly and doing everything I should be doing to keep the water clean and healthy. Thank you in advance for any and all advice and guidence!

 

[rayjay]

Wendy, seahorses should NOT be in a tank with readings of ammonia and/or nitrite.
You have to do something immediately before their gills are burned if not already.
Move them to a hospital tank while the tank finishes cycling, or at the very least, do a major water change and add ClorAm-X to bind up the ammonia and nitrite until the cycle finishes and takes care of what is produced and also uses up the bound quantity as well.
You might also test the water with someone else's test kit to verify your readings.
As for the tank and filtration, the mechanical filters should be cleaned VERY regular and often as they become beds for nasty bacteria to grow.
I wouldn't go beyond a week without cleaning out the filter in water removed from the tank and replacing that water with new.
Look for trapped food in hard to see places and remove it before it can decay.

 

[mtc1966]

Rajay i believe she did cycle the tank 1st so i am thinking weekly water changes are now needed . i would do 3 or 4 g a week jmo. clean the filter pads every month and rinse with ro water before putting back in tank again just my opinion . i like to use a razor blade to clean the glass works well just watch and dont nick the seals in the corners.

 

[WendyCT]

yes, thanks Mike, I did cycle the tank.

I will do a water change and clean the filters tomorrow as soon as I am home from work.

What is the best system or product for accurately reading the levels in the tank? I have the viles with the color coded "flash cards" which I believe a lot of people use to test their water. Is there anything that is more accurate that isn't outrageously expensive? I am going to take some water into Fintastics tomorrow and have them test it for me also.

 

[rayjay]

I'm sorry but a properly cycled tank does not have ammonia and nitrite in it.
Even doing 50% water change you still have .125 ammonia and nitrite which while better is still no good. You still need to add ClorAm-X to take care of the rest of the ammonia and nitrite or transfer the seahorses to a hospital tank with new water matching the tank water for pH, s.g., and temperature.
For seahorse tanks, the filter pads need cleaning at least once a week IMO. I clean my mechanical filters every 3 or 4 days at the worst.
The longer you leave the crap in the filter, the more it decomposes and causes food for nasty bacteria. The longer you run the system like that, the greater the chances are that you will have seahorse health problems if not deaths.

I forgot to mention in my first post that if alkalinity is OK, the pH problem is often caused by insufficient gas exchange at the surface of the water.
The cause can be simply insufficient movement of the water's surface or it can be that the room air is CO2 laden and needs a fresh air source.
Take a litre of tank water outside, aerate it with a pump for an hour or two and recheck the pH. If there is any increase at all, even .2 more, then that is likely your problem.

 

[mtc1966]

i agree a cycled tank will not have those numbers but if the tank was cycled and she added two seahorses and didnt do a water change for a month would that not make the readings go back up ? Rayjay in the tanks that you cleaned the filter pads weekly were you also running a skimmer ? or just the mechanical

 

[rayjay]

If poor husbandry was involved with too much feeding it is possible of course, but I still think the tank wasn't fully cycled.
Before placing livestock into a newly cycled tank, one needs to add enough ammonia to get 1 or 2ppm and see if it clears in a day. If not, the cycle is not complete IMO.
While I used to use large skimmers in all my tanks, I no longer do, preferring larger and more frequent water changes.
Skimming doesn't take the place of cleaning mechanical filters.
Skimmers remove dissolved organic material whereas the mechanical filters remove undissolved larger particulate matter.

 

[mtc1966]

gotcha that makes sense

 

[WendyCT]

Had the water checked at Fintastics (local wonderful fish store) and was told the readings were fine. No ammonia and minute nitrate which would be gone in a day or two at most. They assured me the tank was not toxic. When I told them of my readings they went back and double checked the water and came back with the same readings.
There must be something wrong with the way I am doing the readings or what I am using... (tubes and drops with colored flash card). Is there a better/more accurate way to get readings?

I did do a complete cleaning of the tank today (filters, fake plants, sponge, etc) and did a water change.

The seahorses appear to be doing very well. They are being playful in the tank. I added a couple more snails and blue legged crabs today to my clean up crew and the seahorses nearly did headstands trying to watch these new additions move around in the tank.

Thanks again for the help and advice.

 

[TamiW]

What brand of test kit are you using and what brand were they using? Also, I'm not sure I trust what they said. As a general rule, don't trust fish stores. There are exception to this, but in general, most fish stores don't have the specialized knowledge to do things right. They probably know how to set up tanks for hardy fish, and will gladly sell you replacements when something dies. In particular what concerns me is their assessment of NitrAte, it won't disappear without water changes*, unless they meant nitrIte. If they used dip stick tests, they're not very accurate. I've also heard LFS say "everythings fine" when levels are around .25 on nitrite and ammonia, because test kits say its safe - its only really "safe" for hardy fish (and even that is debatable).

When you say you did a complete cleaning of the filters, what did you do? I'm concerned that you may have possibly removed any beneficial bacteria that were there if you over cleaned.

My gut instinct is that your tank is not yet cycled, as you just got these seahorses and had to set up the tank in an emergency. This likely means the levels are going to get worse before they get better. It takes 4-8 weeks for a saltwater tank to finish cycling. Can you recap the history of this tank, so I can make some recommendations on what we can do to keep things stable?


*Some caveats apply, there are nutrient export systems that will remove it, but for simplicities sake we'll say it doesn't.

 

[Tmoriarty]

Nitrate can be removed without water changes through many different avenues. Live rock removes some nitrate by providing zones within that are anerobic, DSB's provide the same function. Macro algaes remove nitrates as does carbon dosing (which actually gives bacteria a source of food).

While It does not seem she is using any of these methods she does have LR I am guessing. That means that to some respect she is removing nitrates without water changes but will not be able to keep up with seahorses as they are messy little beasts.

I can not comment on whether or not the op's tank was properly cycled but at this point its not as important. You can always add in something to absorb the ammonia in case there is still any levels in the tank, nitrite levels under .5ppm should not be harmful to your horses but should be watched to ensure they dont rise.

If you are using test tubes/cards I am assuming you are using API test kits as they are the most common people are using, since you do not know the name I am assuming you are not buying $50 dollar test kits but instead bought the pack that has multiple test kits from your LFS. There is a good chance your LFS is also using API as they are the cheapest to test multiple water samples with for customers, they could be using a more expensive/accurate kit but I have found that is not normally the case.

If you wish to buy more expensive test kits to monitor those levels (amm/nitrite/nitrate) there is some out there made by elos/redsea/etc. but honestly for those tests the API ones will do you just fine.

Fish grrl is right to watch how much you clean in the tank, all those surfaces have beneficial bacteria on them, removing to much of that beneficial bacteria at once will lower your tanks ability to handle the bio-load and can cause ammonia/nitrite spikes that you are trying to avoid.

Hope this helps, and good luck.

 

[rayjay]

I have to disagree on the .5ppm ammonia as it burns the gills.

 

[TamiW]

Tyler, all this things are true, but for someone new to the hobby without much experience, it is simpler to assume nitrate needs to be removed via water changes. Especially high waste producing animals like seahorses, where alternate nutrient export systems are going to take a bit of experience and planning to be effective.

 

[Tmoriarty]

I know what your saying . Just figured I would put the information out there so that they understand the whole effect of nutrient export. The problem gets a little more complex with larger aquariums. For example in my 203g tank a 20% wc is only 50g's (after counting my sump) 50g's is a lot of water to change but would only reduce nitrates by 20%. If I had a nitrate level of 20 in my tank then changing out 50g's of water would only lower my level by 4 and would leave me at 16 nitrates which is still high in a reef tank.

Water changes get exponentially less effective the lower the nutrient levels you are trying to export are in the tank. For a small tank a 50% water change may only be 10g's and is easy to do and is the fastest most effective way to reduce nutrients, especially in an emergency. For me I just do not have the means to change 125g's of water at any given time so I control my nutrients through other means.

I am currently in the process of setting up a 60g Seahorse tank, where nutrient export will be paramount. My solution is to add in large amounts of macro algae that grow fast and will export maximum nutrients. My advice to the op is the utilize macro algae as well once they get the problem under control.

For now I do agree that the best method for them is changing out water to lower the ammonia level to something less toxic, or even better yet putting in a media that absorbs the ammonia to prevent the burning of the SH's gills.

 

[Tmoriarty]

I have to disagree on the .5ppm ammonia as it burns the gills.

Perhaps you are correct, do you think it is something that will be fully detrimental at those levels to the horses though? I know .5ppm is not good but I did not think it was high enough to really cause any level of damage (I have opened bags after shipping with levels much higher).

I know that the ammonia in a shipping bag is not activated until it makes contact with the air but I have seen animals in water with 2.0ppm ammonia be healthy without to much issue. Perhaps their limited exposure to those levels had something to do with it.

 

[Tmoriarty]

double post...

 

[rayjay]

I have personal experience with gill burn at .25ppm ammonia.
Lost 4 of the six seahorses and I believe it was only at that level for 2.5 days.

 

[Tmoriarty]

Perhaps it does damage but takes a while (24hours+) to really be noticed. sorry to hear that you lost some horses to ammonia burns, thats cruddy.

 

[amutti]

I have a 2 wonderful female seahorses who live in a 29g tank with a filter and a skimmer. I have a regular small fan I use on top to keep it cool (around 72 degrees). My Nitrite is .25, Nitrate 40-60, pH 7.8, Ammonia .25. I have yet been able to get the Ammonia down lower or the pH higher.. ? Are there things I can add to help it?

With the warmer weather lately I have had to put in about 1g of RO water at night which I purchase from the local fish store (Fintastic) in Manchester, CT.

I have had the tank up and running for about a month now and have not yet done a water change. How often should a water change be done and how much of a water change?

I was wondering also what the ideal clean up crew? I currently have:
2 small blue leg crabs
3 nassarius snails
3 nerites snails
4 other snails that I'm not sure name ("climb" all over the glass)

Is this enough or do I need more? If more, what should I invest in?

I am starting to get a "film" algea? on the glass along with those very tiny spider like jellyfish creatures. Also the filter sponge in the back of the tank is getting a layer of greenish colored algea? gook? on it. Am I suppose to take that off and clean it as well and if so, do I just rinse it under the tap and then replace it?

Sorry for all the questions I just want to make sure I am taking care of them properly and doing everything I should be doing to keep the water clean and healthy. Thank you in advance for any and all advice and guidence!

I ran a 29 gallon with a pair of hippocampus erectus for 4 years. An extended power outage and my lack of planning (no generator) allowed for some conditions that vibro got them . . . but that's not important (except the subtle hint that you should have a generator if you keep saltwater fish because they don't last long without water circulation) . . . you're looking for advice on maintenance.

First water changes: I did 7 gallon water changes once a week. I never used RO water, but my phosphates and silica in my tap water aren't very high. Every few months I might do a water change with some of that pre-packaged 'ocean water' with 'thousands of beneficial bacteria', but I'm not sure it that helped much.

I'm not sure what you're running in the filter. IMHO you shouldn't have much in there as it usually causes higher nitrates. For the first year or two I'd run a small mesh bag with carbon once or twice a month for a couple days to 'polish' the water. It seemed to make it less yellow (no, it wasn't really yellow, but running the carbon made it clearer). Eventually I switched to running chemi pure elite, switching it out every 2 or 3 months and rinsing the bag in tank water at every water change. This pretty much eliminated phosphates, nitrates and silica from the water and I hardly had any algae issues at all. Yes, I had 'slime' on the glass, but I've never owned a tank that didn't. I just used a magnetic glass cleaner and it came off with little effort. No real stubborn algae issues at all.

Some seahorse keepers loath any type of crab, I'm not one of those. I think they serve a very essential role in a tank. Personally, I'd start with 5-8 small blue legged crabs. I also had 2 porcelain crab -- they were awesome! They have these neat sweeper arms that pull food out of the water column -- great for extra mysis the seashores don't get. They are also fairly timid; so they won't compete with the seahorses for food the way a peppermint shrimp might.

Snails are good, but people usually get too many at a time and they die off due to starvation in the first few weeks/months. If you have little coral and very stable rock/tank decorations, then I actually get turbo snails. They are voracious algae eaters, but they can get large, can be clumsy, and can starve if there isn't enough algae. I'd get two small ones -- be sure to drip acclimate!!! Nerite and Cerith aren't bad either, but you'll have to have 4 or 5 to do the work of one turbo snail. I usually go for variety in my tanks and slowly build up a population . . . Maybe a 1 turbo and 2-3 nerite, then a couple weeks later, if they have't controlled the algae, a couple of cerith or another turbo . . . then wait a few weeks to see if you need more.

I also really like nassarius snails. They eat detritus and meaty foods that make it to the bottom of the tank. They also tunnel around in the gravel and help stir it up. I always have a few of these in my tanks. Lately I've been trying out Glowing Marginella Snails. I purchased them from Reef2Go (not my favorite place) and they seem to behave just like nassarius, but much smaller.

Those jelly fish things you describe sound like hydroids (More info on hydroids and a picture). For normal tanks they wouldn't be a problem, but for seahorses anything that stings can be an issue. Your nutrient levels are probably too high. I'd try sucking them out when you do water changes.

Hope all of this helps . . . .Good luck!

 

[WendyCT]

Thank you again everyone for your suggestions and input. I was away on vacation and had several friends watching and helping. The girls are still doing well. The water numbers have not changed. I don't know what I am doing wrong...
couple answers..
* I am using API testing as is the pet store that tested the water for me. (the pet store (Fintastics) in Manchester is very good and very fair. They truly are one of the good guys out there and not out to just sell to me, or anyone, just to make a buck. I can't tell you how helpful they have been and have even told me to hold off on things I have asked if I should purchase. They have been more than fair and have even thrown in a few little freebees to help me out which they did not have to do. I know this isn't the case for many LFS but they are truly the exception to the rule. )

* When I cleaned the tank I took out the fake plants and cleaned them in water from the tank I had taken out earlier. I rinsed them off with RO water. I checked the filter but it looked clean so I let it be. I had heard that the filters shouldn't be cleaned due to the helpful bacteria that is often found there. I cleaned the tank sides with one of those magnetic cleaner "stones". I changed the water as mentioned above. The levels did not change.

* When I set up this tank I used live sand, live rocks, dry rocks, "live" ocean water, a bacteria "starter", and RO water brought to the correct salt level. I waited 3 weeks before putting my seahorse into it and only then did it because the 10g tank was too hard to keep up with and I was worried it would do more harm keeping her in that than in the new tank. The levels were (ph 7.8-8.0, Nitrate 20, Nitrite .25, Ammonia .50) .. in the next week the levels (ph 7.8-8.0, Nitrate 40, Nitrite .25, Ammonia .25).. The the Nitrate started raising to 40-60 and has stayed there. With the other readings now being Nitrite .15, Ammonia 0, ph 8.0. Yesterday I added a 2nd dose of Instand Ocean Natural Nitrate Reducer. It states that it could take a couple weeks for Nitrate level to reach desired level.

The girls seem to be doing well. They are swimming all around, anchoring, eating, chasing the food if I swirl it a little when I put it in the tank. Cat the curious will still follow me around the tank when I look in to check things out and when I put the equipment in to check the water readings she is always there to "help out" in her supervisory role.

I know it has been mentioned to stir up where food may be hiding and vacuum the tank to get rid of excess food. How do I do this, or can I even do this, if I have live sand and snails, etc hiding at the bottom? The skimmer seems to be working really, really well I think. I empty the tank once a day to once a day and a half.

The tank is now 6 full weeks old but I was told that if I used the live sand and the live "ocean" water, and the healthy bacteria starter that it would be/should be cycled quicker and ready for seahorses/fish in 7-10 days. I didn't put the seahorses in until it was running for 15 days and only then, as I mentioned earlier, because I thought it would be healthier than the 10g tank was becoming.

Please know that I am doing the very best i can and want to do everything I can to keep theses darling seahorses healthy and happy. I am brand new at this and was kinda thrown into by a son's thoughtful, if not misquided, gesture. I am listening to and appreciate all advice offered but please keep in mind that I may ask alot of questions because I am new and trying to learn from those with more experience and just because I am asking all these questions doesn't mean I am completely clueless or naive about what has to be done. I will honestly do everything within my power if I am given the steps to do what needs to be done.

I just don't know why the nitrate levels are so high. I heard from someone that Mangrove plants help? If any of the snails have died could that be causing it?