Clown harem projet

[Ardeus]

I currently have a 10 year old ocellaris pair (regural + Darwin) and 7 BTA's.

My plan is to let the BTA's take over the tank (300 litres) and then raise a batch of fry and add them to the parents tank later on.

I am guessing that the parents woudn't harass the 20-30 young clowns I plan to keep.

On the othe hand, I suppose that the young group has no chances or breeding and plenty of real estate, so there will be less reasons to fight.

How long would a situation like this be sustainable? What about the adult pair quality of life?

Finally, will the addtion of a larger fish from other specie would ditract them from paying too much attention to each other. What other fish would fit this role and don't go mad in this rank?

When I had a large colony of Lake Tanganyika shrlldwellers, the presence of larger but harmless fish kept the aggression very low.

 

[OrionN]

........
I am guessing that the parents woudn't harass the 20-30 young clowns I plan to keep.

........

Wrong guess. The fact that the smaller clowns are their offspring does not mater one bit. They will bite and chase the smaller clowns.
In a large group of clowns like that they will fight as they mature. One way clowns get away from each other is go to the air. Keep it cover or you will loose a lot of clowns.
Having a large enough tank, which you have and a large enough number of clowns (but not too dense) helps but still you need cover the tank. You will loose some clownfish. In your tank, 25 would be an OK number. <15 or >35 and your chance of success would be less.
I bred Ocellaris and Percula and ended up with 2000 babies and it took me more than 2 years to sell them all. I got clown babies coming out of my ears so I know a thing or two about keeping them together as they mature.

 

[Ardeus]

Thks OrionN.

I will keep the tank covered and as soon as I see too much fighting I will find them new homes and just go back to the original couple.

 

[Tahoe Reefer]

In your tank, 25 would be an OK number. <15 or >35 and your chance of success would be less.

Could you expand on this please? Im also building a harem tank. I've already bred the clowns, they are 8 mons old. 50 of them, so far healthy and seemingly happy.


Adreus,
Keep in mind Orange clown + Black clown will have a variety of orange to brown to black clown offspring. Im a fan of the mocha clown myself.

 

[ThRoewer]

First off, there is no such thing as a clownfish harem. There is usually only one pair per anemone. Whatever else gets tolerated are extras of the same species as reserve in case one of the pair dies. Extras will usually only be accepted if the anemone is large enough and if the new arrivals just have settled down (= ~2 weeks old and super tiny).
Newcomers of a different species get eaten. Btw, ocellaris and darwins are most likely two different species.
I tried adding a subadult to established pairs many times and it never ended well.
Next time I will try it with little ones that have just settled down, though even with that the chances are slim that it works in captivity.

Some people started out with a large number of juveniles from the same hatch and that seems to have a better chance of success.

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[ThRoewer]

...
Keep in mind Orange clown + Black clown will have a variety of orange to brown to black clown offspring. Im a fan of the mocha clown myself.

Actually, if you mix a regular ocellaris with a darwin clownfish you will get hybrids with uniform coloration - mocha clowns. This is basically the proof that both are different species. For hybrid pairings Mendel's laws do not work.

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[OrionN]

Could you expand on this please? Im also building a harem tank. I've already bred the clowns, they are 8 mons old. 50 of them, so far healthy and seemingly happy.
.....

What is there to elaborate. the OP want a group of clowns in a tank with a lot of anemones. They will not live in harmony, but will bicker with each other, If you have them not too dense, they will tolerate and not kill each other. Too dense of a population they will constantly nipped at each other at every turn. Too loose of a group and some of them will mature into females and will not tolerate each other within sight.

I have to keep babies clowns, Percular and SnowOnyx (OnyxXSnowflake) Percula/Ocellaris hybrid. Percula is slightly more aggressive than Ocellaris. I had so many babies I have to put them in multiple tanks from 20 gal to 100 gals and in tubs.. Unless the tank is cover or the water level 5 inches or so below the rim, I will loose fish from jumping out.

I chose the very best babies and keep them in my DT 16 in a 320 gal tank with a numbers of natural host anemones of Ocellaris and Percula, mainly Magnifica and Gigantea. A few Haddoni also. Of these 16, after 2 years I have two mature pairs of clowns the rest died through fighting. The tank is a 6 foot tank separated by my huge 28 inches T. Gigas. The pair of the R side cannot see the pair on the L side. That is the only way the live in peace.

It was very interest ion that the two pairs I ended up with was a BlackIce Ocelaris and Onyx Percula. It seem to me that the fish really pair with similar fish if they have choice, (pure blood Ocellaris and pure blood Percula). I do not think that this is a coincident. I think the pairing is easier since the have the same set of genetic coding thus the the signal they give each other match with that the other fish expect.

There are at least one tank that I know off that did the same-thing the OP trying to do. mobert's tank linked below:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1259398

 

[ThRoewer]

Your pairing observation makes it a lot of sense to me. If fish have a choice they usually pair up with a member of their own species. It may not be politically correct, but this kind of "racism" is a quite common evolutionary mechanism of speciation.
Only if there are no members of its own species available a fish will pair up with a member of a closely related species.

BTW, when I was breeding, I kept a few hundred in 160 liter tanks. Even at that density you have constant fighting, but the fighters constantly change as well so they don't do too much damage to each other.

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[Ardeus]

I have only kept this pair since 2006 and I tried to resist the temptation of having more fish.

The first time I bought another fish was a pigmy angel and at some point he teamed up with the male ocellaris and they nearly killed the female ocellaris! It took months for the pair to get back together after finding a new home for the angel.

After that I had a couple of Banggaii cardinals, bred them and gave them to a friend.

I see this as a temporary project. If I notice too much stress, I will find new homes for all the clowns except my original couple.

My thought is that by giving them lots of real estate and having an established couple, the clown group would have less reasons to fight. None of them has a chance of ascending to a breeding position.

In terms of layout, I am preparing 3 islands covered with anemones and another with soft corals.

 

[OrionN]

Way early in my reef keeping, I tried to keep trio of clowns several time. Mostly docile species. Pink Skunk, Ocellaris and Percula. Every one of these occasions, they have Magnifica (several) as hosts. What happen is I have a pair and a third wheel that got abused. Always there is some wound on him, either damage fins, missing scales and the like. The third fish in never allow in the anemone except at night and when there is something they perceive as a danger in the tank (like when I have my hand in the tank).
I have not try to keep groups of clown for a long time, other than when I don't have room for them and keep them temporary in a small group. One pair, or one pair per territory for me. My DT is really two pair territory the way I set up right now.

 

[Tahoe Reefer]

Actually, if you mix a regular ocellaris with a darwin clownfish you will get hybrids with uniform coloration - mocha clowns. This is basically the proof that both are different species. For hybrid pairings Mendel's laws do not work.

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I thouht orange ocellaris and black ocellaris were the same species. In my "harem" there IS a difference in color, brown is the most common but there are full on black clowns and there are orange ones, not perfect wild caught orange but not brown. Cell phone video is a little dull looking but here is a peak before culling.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rc7r7iicumon8u7/Video Mar 06, 11 11 51 AM.mov?dl=0

Edit:
Just reread the thread and I missed the "In your tank" part of the 15 -35 refering to the size of the harem. That makes sense, idk how I missed the tank size reference in there...

 

[Ardeus]

I wonder if the couple being BW female + Orange male or vice versa has some influence on the color of the offspring. That batch comes from a BW female + Orange male?