Ok. As a published researcher who worked specifically on neurohistochemistry and microscopy of eyes, including fish eyes, this was an interesting thread. If I had come along before TheRoewer did, I would have said something quite similar although possibly slightly less bluntly. The bluntness, I would venture to say, is just a cultural difference. I work within a very large population of international scientists and physicians and spend most of every workday in conference with representatives of each international affiliate. TheRoewer was well within the bounds of the normal everyday scientific conversations I am party to. I did not see the offense that the OP is seeing. Just a perspective from outside.
Clownfish under a microscope !
- Thread starter jlnielsen13
- Start date
Brieninsac
Member
That was a pretty mean spirited comment by ThRoewer and I expect more from a seasoned member who has offered so much in the past. ThRoewer could have corrected the OP but done so in a much more diplomatic way other then disparaging his occupation because of an oversight.
jeff240gallon
New member
Yeah, he also made a comment on the "counter productive war" we're fighting. I'm sure isis would agree with him (As they behead another innocent)
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ThRoewer
New member
That remark was actually supposed to be ironic, but some are so thin skinned that they take everything as an insult and overreact.
Different war! Daesh would not exist without the war in Iraq.
jlnielsen13
New member
Thanks for your input! I hope your colleagues wouldn't condemn you as a scientist because of a histology mistake. My degree isn't in micro. Actually it is in animal science, vet/biotechnology from U of I. My masters is in education. I do teach histology and showed the slide to two individuals in neuroscience without any preface and they both were excited at the "neurons". We all make mistakes, and learn so that's a positive! I have corrected the mistake and used it as a teaching moment with my 150 students! Not cause I had to but because it makes them actually appreciate me and science more that we all make errors, especially ones not in our specialty!
Take care,
Jim
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mountainraised
New member
Go Vandals!
sam.basye
New member
Very cool pictures!Hello,
As a new clownfish nursery owner I have unfortunately experienced a lot of losses but as a biology teacher I thought why not learn and show my students how cool things can look under a microscope.
Here is a close-up of an 8 day old clownfish! Look at the histology of the "brain " tissue!!
NEURONS!!
Hope you enjoyed,
Jim
For those of us without a degree in teaching, biology, or reef central.. what exactly am I looking at? Lol
I assume the second picture is of the fishes brain, what about the other with the arrow pointing to the gold blob? I can pick it what appears to be it's mouth, backbone, and eye(s)? Haha
Great getting to see a new side of the hobby and to change things up a little bit!
Lastly, is the fish under the microscope alive? Wondering how you get clear pictures of a moving fish unless it's dead.
Thanks for sharing!
phender
Active member
Hi Jim,
I am also a biology teacher leaning more toward environmental/ecological rather than cellular/histological. I can think of several times during my 30 year career when looking through a microscope thinking "holy cow, this is......" and a couple days later realizing that, "oh wait, that can't be ..... because......". Anyway, so you are thinking now that they are melanophores? Not trying to rub it in, just to clarify for my own education.
BTW, I have been a relatively successful clownfish breeder, producing pretty good yields (~ 90%) of three different species of clowns in the 90's and early 2000s. I am not an expert, but I might be able to help if you give a little more info. If you are loosing a high percentage of your babies within the first couple days I would take a look at improving the diet of the parents. A meaty frozen food like Formula 1 (I don't know if it is still a quality food) seemed to help produce stronger babies. Strong babies can survive just on their yolk sac for the first 2-3 days, so if you are losing them before that, you need to look at the diet of the parents, possible transfer trauma (physical trauma to the babies or differences in water conditions in the parent tank and larvae tank) or maybe too much water movement in the baby's tank.
jlnielsen13
New member
Thanks for the reply,
I wasn't sure if I was going to share this on this forum but there have been some interesting developments:
Honestly, I don't know where I am leaning. I did decide to follow up because two people who seem to be very educated in histology told me that they are sure they are melanophores/chromatophores.
I took the sample to a neurosurgeon at Loyola Medical Hospital just outside of Chicago, IL. He is very well respected member of their neuro dept. and someone that I really trust. He took a look at the slide and told me-
"I can confirm that these are in fact neurons because you can see dendrites"
He has microscopes that can see more detail than what we have at the high school level.
Furthermore, I received a lesson on chromatophores and their origins as nervous tissue. In fact it is confirmed that their origins are from the neural crest.
So in conclusion I have a nationally renown neurosurgeon who only deals with people, not clownfish, who says they are definitely neurons. I also have two individuals on this site who seem to have a lot of both histology experience and clown fish experience that say they are chromatophores. And on top of that chromatophores are neural in origin.
So, It's probably safest to not express my opinion on what I believe now, at least not on this site!!
It's actually been a fun side research project for me.
Thanks,
Jim
I wasn't sure if I was going to share this on this forum but there have been some interesting developments:
Honestly, I don't know where I am leaning. I did decide to follow up because two people who seem to be very educated in histology told me that they are sure they are melanophores/chromatophores.
I took the sample to a neurosurgeon at Loyola Medical Hospital just outside of Chicago, IL. He is very well respected member of their neuro dept. and someone that I really trust. He took a look at the slide and told me-
"I can confirm that these are in fact neurons because you can see dendrites"
He has microscopes that can see more detail than what we have at the high school level.
Furthermore, I received a lesson on chromatophores and their origins as nervous tissue. In fact it is confirmed that their origins are from the neural crest.
So in conclusion I have a nationally renown neurosurgeon who only deals with people, not clownfish, who says they are definitely neurons. I also have two individuals on this site who seem to have a lot of both histology experience and clown fish experience that say they are chromatophores. And on top of that chromatophores are neural in origin.
So, It's probably safest to not express my opinion on what I believe now, at least not on this site!!
It's actually been a fun side research project for me.
Thanks,
Jim
jason2459
Well-known member
What magnification are each of these at? Nice pictures.Hello,
As a new clownfish nursery owner I have unfortunately experienced a lot of losses but as a biology teacher I thought why not learn and show my students how cool things can look under a microscope.
Here is a close-up of an 8 day old clownfish! Look at the histology of the "brain " tissue!!
NEURONS!!
Hope you enjoyed,
Jim
jason2459
Well-known member
Do it! They are so much fun.
My adventures in viewing the reef tank up close and personal.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2567904
jason2459
Well-known member
In fry the brain would already have formed This is very cool: http://www.nature.com/news/flashing-fish-brains-filmed-in-action-1.12621
ThRoewer
New member
Human neurons are larger than those of a fish larva. A neurosurgeon who only has experience with the human or mammalian nervous systems and never seen chromatophores (cells that do not exist in mammals) may easily confuse them as they are of course connected to and controlled by the nervous system.
I have seen chromatophores in action on live fish under the microscope, and they looked precisely like what you see in the pictures.
Furthermore, the size would be totally out of proportion for a nerve-cell of a small fish larva.
Lastly, they are simply in the wrong location for "brain cells" of a fish.
Here some images of actual fish embryo brains and neurons:
Source: http://www.jneurosci.org/content/26/51/13400.full
I have seen chromatophores in action on live fish under the microscope, and they looked precisely like what you see in the pictures.
Furthermore, the size would be totally out of proportion for a nerve-cell of a small fish larva.
Lastly, they are simply in the wrong location for "brain cells" of a fish.
Here some images of actual fish embryo brains and neurons:
Source: http://www.jneurosci.org/content/26/51/13400.full
Human neurons are larger than those of a fish larva. A neurosurgeon who only has experience with the human or mammalian nervous systems and never seen chromatophores (cells that do not exist in mammals) may easily confuse them as they are of course connected to and controlled by the nervous system.
I have seen chromatophores in action on live fish under the microscope, and they looked precisely like what you see in the pictures.
Furthermore, the size would be totally out of proportion for a nerve-cell of a small fish larva.
Lastly, they are simply in the wrong location for "brain cells" of a fish.
Here some images of actual fish embryo brains and neurons:
Source: http://www.jneurosci.org/content/26/51/13400.full
Give it a break bro. This can actually be a cool thread but you have probably spent countless hours thinking of ways to descriminate this teacher. Do you seriously have nothing better to do than fight on RC? Like seriously. Leave this thread alone.
ThRoewer
New member
Not that it would be any of your business, but I'm having no interest in discriminating or discrediting anyone or having a fight.
All I want, is to make sure is that the info here is correct.
I would really like this to be a strictly fact based discussion and not getting any further into personal attacks like the one you just launched again.
jlnielsen13
New member
Thanks for the great info guys. I agree he is used to humans, that's why I emphasized that in my last post!! I also agree about the location and brought that up during our meeting and he noted that the head is "smashed" from the weight of the slide as you can see in the "bump" so maybe some neural tissue is there??
He also thought the fact that chromatophores are neural in root was an important point as well, not neurons, but derived from neural tissue.
Have a great day guys!!
JIM
He also thought the fact that chromatophores are neural in root was an important point as well, not neurons, but derived from neural tissue.
Have a great day guys!!
JIM
jlnielsen13
New member
One other note,
The head stripe is now present on my 14 little guys, which I think would really be good evidence for chromatophores in that area. These cells are not visible in any other area on this fish...
I am also a mammal guy as far as my studies go, but definitely have gills when it comes to my free time !
Take care,
JIm
The head stripe is now present on my 14 little guys, which I think would really be good evidence for chromatophores in that area. These cells are not visible in any other area on this fish...
I am also a mammal guy as far as my studies go, but definitely have gills when it comes to my free time !
Take care,
JIm
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