Common Misconceptions In the Hobby

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10649992#post10649992 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Peter Eichler
Just to expand on the above a bit, I'd say it's a misconception that photosynthetic corals only need light in order to thrive. It's also a misconception that all corals need supplemental feeding beyond what nutrition they get from leftovers from feeding your fish and other nutrients in the water column.

thanks for the reading--appreciated as always

but my point or question really was:
How important is it to dose and dose and dose phyto--I know guys that add a cup a day to average stocked tanks---in order to try and immitate reef conditions where the corals are exposed to an over abudance of phyto?

This is the only reason I can see why people make their own phyto----the cost factor--mmmm a cup of DT a day you would need stock in the place to afford it.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10648367#post10648367 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ninong
Wow! I didn't say that anywhere in this thread that I know of. However, I do think that Tridacna crocea and T. maxima clams do better when placed on a flat rocky surface and in a location where they will receive adequate light. In most reef tanks under typical lighting that means higher on the rock structure rather than lower. If you're running 1000w lamps, then place them anywhere you please. :D

Is my interpretation wrong. You stated
"Tridacna clams can survive without phytoplankton. They do better with it, especially when young.

In their natural environment, juvenile Tridacna clams get as much as 40% of their nutrition from filtering. This percentage decreases with age until it drops to less than 5% in mature clams."
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10651165#post10651165 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10648367#post10648367 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ninong
Wow! I didn't say that anywhere in this thread that I know of. However, I do think that Tridacna crocea and T. maxima clams do better when placed on a flat rocky surface and in a location where they will receive adequate light. In most reef tanks under typical lighting that means higher on the rock structure rather than lower. If you're running 1000w lamps, then place them anywhere you please. :D

Is my interpretation wrong. You stated
"Tridacna clams can survive without phytoplankton. They do better with it, especially when young.

In their natural environment, juvenile Tridacna clams get as much as 40% of their nutrition from filtering. This percentage decreases with age until it drops to less than 5% in mature clams."

This is what you said: "What I hear you stating in praticalities is that all clams esp adult ones should be placed up high in the reef near the halides?"

I didn't say anything about all clams having to be placed up high near the halides. :D

I would recommend placing T. crocea on the rock structure high enough in the tank that they receive adequate lighting. That will depend on your particular lighting but in most tanks, it will mean that they should be fairly high up in the tank.

I would recommend placing T. maxima on the rock structure high enough in the tank that they receive adequate lighting. However, they do not require quite as much light as T. crocea. IMO, both crocea and maxima should be placed on the rock structure in a spot where they can comfortably attach.

T. squamosa, T. derasa and T. gigas could all be placed on the sand bed in most tanks. In fact, if your lighting is insufficient to accomodate these species on the sand bed, then maybe you need stronger lighting.

:D

P.S. -- Daniel Knop, in his book Giant Clams, recommends 250w metal halides as minimum lighting for tridacnids. That being said, it's still quite possible to keep clams under T5 HO lamps or VHO lamps, depending on the depth of the water column and the placement of the clams. Knop wrote that before T5 HO lamps became commonplace in the hobby.

It really doesn't matter what your source of light is as long as the light reaching the clam's mantle is adequate.
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10651234#post10651234 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ninong
This is what you said: "What I hear you stating in praticalities is that all clams esp adult ones should be placed up high in the reef near the halides?"

I didn't say anything about all clams having to be placed up high near the halides. :D

I would recommend placing T. crocea on the rock structure high enough in the tank that they receive adequate lighting. That will depend on your particular lighting but in most tanks, it will mean that they should be fairly high up in the tank.

I would recommend placing T. maxima on the rock structure high enough in the tank that they receive adequate lighting. However, they do not require quite as much light as T. crocea. IMO, both crocea and maxima should be placed on the rock structure in a spot where they can comfortably attach.

T. squamosa, T. derasa and T. gigas could all be placed on the sand bed in most tanks. In fact, if your lighting is insufficient to accomodate these species on the sand bed, then maybe you need stronger lighting.

:D
P.S. -- Daniel Knop, in his book Giant Clams, recommends 250w metal halides as minimum lighting for tridacnids. That being said, it's still quite possible to keep clams under T5 HO lamps or VHO lamps, depending on the depth of the water column and the placement of the clams. Knop wrote that before T5 HO lamps became commonplace in the hobby.

It really doesn't matter what your source of light is as long as the light reaching the clam's mantle is adequate.

sincere apologies:
it was my phrasing of the statement that was incorrect--I should have added-------then can one infer or assume that clams should be placed up high in the tank in adult stage since they rely much more on the light then on filter feeding.

this is a great example of how easy misconception can arise and how valuable it is to be able to have a profitable dialogue with really experienced guys in this thread.
Please don't ever take for granted the power of your ideas and the wealth of knowledge we take away from this and the many other great threads on this site.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10651818#post10651818 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LesMartin
Brilliant thread ! It's gone off at all sorts of interesting tangents. Got my vote and subscription.

its thrilling----its like when I was little and the big guys would ask me to play baseball with them :rollface: :rollface:
you take a little ribbing and teasing but in the end you were a better player.
 
It's funny because I have several maxima and crocea clams sitting on the bottom of a prop tank 24" below PCs. I also have several in my 265G under 150 and 175 Halides sitting on the bottom 36" under the lights and they are all growing.

I think light for is over rated in general in the hobby. Water circulation and quality water are more important IMHO with light coming in 3rd place. I think more light output certainly helps many tanks that are sub-par on the first two items.

BTW, I have Acros and encrusting montis growing under PCs too. Granted they don't grow as fast as under the halides but they grow non the less. Actually they tend to grow stronger "stems" and bases from what I can see under less the "ideal" light where it appears they are more "fragile" when they grow quicker under halides. Of course this is just from observation in my tank and there could be more to it then that but I thought it was worth mentioning.

I do think the amount of light quoted we "need" is something of a myth if other parameters are correct.

Carlo
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10652543#post10652543 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cayars
It's funny because I have several maxima and crocea clams sitting on the bottom of a prop tank 24" below PCs. I also have several in my 265G under 150 and 175 Halides sitting on the bottom 36" under the lights and they are all growing.

I think light for is over rated in general in the hobby. Water circulation and quality water are more important IMHO with light coming in 3rd place. I think more light output certainly helps many tanks that are sub-par on the first two items.

BTW, I have Acros and encrusting montis growing under PCs too. Granted they don't grow as fast as under the halides but they grow non the less. Actually they tend to grow stronger "stems" and bases from what I can see under less the "ideal" light where it appears they are more "fragile" when they grow quicker under halides. Of course this is just from observation in my tank and there could be more to it then that but I thought it was worth mentioning.

I do think the amount of light quoted we "need" is something of a myth if other parameters are correct.

Carlo

that's another misconception that I hope the experinced will answer in this thread
I have been told repeatedly that I can't grow brilliantly coloured sps's in my tank because the lighting--I have twin 150 watt 10,000k halides and twin 96 compact attinics in a coral life canopy
that I need to switch to a minimum 250 watt 10,000 k's.
I have shyed back from sps more because my tank is still not 100 per cent chemically the way I want it---and I have taken time to address conditions like flow rates, flow type, tank turn over, and chemical fluctutions while enjoying lps's that seem a little more tolerant to apprentiship handling in the first year.

But the nagging concept is always this idea that I have to fork out another 10000 on upgraded lighting in order to enjoy sps's
 
OK Ninong I can't take it anymore...lets see your clams:)
Here are mine:

Dsc01556.jpg


And this little guy:

Dsc01715.jpg


Certainly not the rarest or hardest to find varieties but I like them.

And all you other guys....why don't you show off what you have accomplished:)

Chris
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10650987#post10650987 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
thanks for the reading--appreciated as always

but my point or question really was:
How important is it to dose and dose and dose phyto--I know guys that add a cup a day to average stocked tanks---in order to try and immitate reef conditions where the corals are exposed to an over abudance of phyto?

This is the only reason I can see why people make their own phyto----the cost factor--mmmm a cup of DT a day you would need stock in the place to afford it.

For the reasons you pointed out I don't think phytoplankton is important in the least. In fact I believe that where phytoplanton levels are highest coral growth is less abundant in nature. I'm not saying phytoplankton is the cause for that, it's most likely other environmental factors. Phytoplankton is an important building block for life in nature, however the direct benefit it has for the corals we have in our aquariums is almost nonexistant. I never have and I never will see phytoplankton as an essential part of having a successful reef aquarium. The only time I personally would use it is with very small clams and if I want to spend a lot of money or time to feed various filter feeders and boost the pod population.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10652750#post10652750 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
that's another misconception that I hope the experinced will answer in this thread
I have been told repeatedly that I can't grow brilliantly coloured sps's in my tank because the lighting--I have twin 150 watt 10,000k halides and twin 96 compact attinics in a coral life canopy
that I need to switch to a minimum 250 watt 10,000 k's.
I have shyed back from sps more because my tank is still not 100 per cent chemically the way I want it---and I have taken time to address conditions like flow rates, flow type, tank turn over, and chemical fluctutions while enjoying lps's that seem a little more tolerant to apprentiship handling in the first year.

But the nagging concept is always this idea that I have to fork out another 10000 on upgraded lighting in order to enjoy sps's

Some SPS will color up under lower light intensities, but as a whole to produce the proteins that give many SPS corals their brilliant colors you're going to need more intense lighting. Keep in mind that light intensity isn't the only factor and things like flow and nutrient levels are important as well.
 
Just another thought on phytoplankton. I've allways thought of cleaning my glass as kind of feeding the tank a little phytoplankton a couple of times a week.
A side from that I dosed DT's for a couple of days several years ago when it came out but that's it. I ceartainly don't think it's necessary except in cases where maybe the little filter feeders are really what someone want's to nurture and that's their thing....and of course with reef tanks it really IS all about what the reefkeeper wants to.
I have always had plenty of feather dusters etc...in all my tanks so a good number will cearatinly do fine without it.

Thanks ricsreef:)

Chris
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10646906#post10646906 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ninong
I was searching online to see if I could find that aquaculture study on baby T. maxima clams that showed that the growth rate and survival rate was substantially higher in a hatchery fed with live phytoplankton than it was in a control hatchery with no feeding of any kind but I didn't find it.

However, I did come across something interesting. Baby gigas clams get as much as 65% of their nutrition from filter feeding, falling off to 34% when they reach 10g dry weight. I guess that's still in line with the 40% figure one of the leading clam hobby experts uses because the 65% figure is for really, really tiny clams.

"Giant clams of the family Tridacnidae are familiar and conspicuous residents of shallow coral reefs throughout much of the tropical Indo-Pacific. Their most characteristic feature is the enlarged, upwardly directed and usually brightly coloured mantle, which is packed with symbiotic dinoflagellate zooxanthellae. An estimated 95% of the carbon fixed by these algal symbionts is translocated to the host (Fitt 1993, Klumpp & Griffiths 1994), where it normally provides sufficient energy to cover at least the immediate metabolic needs of the hosts (Tench et al. 1981, Fisher et al. 1985, Mingna 1988, Klumpp & Griffiths 1999).

"Giant clams are also able to filter food particles from the water column (Yonge 1936), although the nutritional significance of this has only recently been quantified. Fitt et al. (1986) first quantified ingestion and digestion of C14-labelled phytoplankton cells by Tridacna gigas, while Klump et al. (1992) showed that particulate food constituted 65% of carbon needs in small (0.1g dry tissue) T. gigas, declining to 34% in individuals of 10g weight. This capacity to exploit both heterotrophic and autotrophic sources of nutrition, plus an ability to divert an unusually high proportion of energy to growth (Klumpp et.al. 1992), are no doubt factors that have allowed T. gigas to become the largest bivalve ever to have existed."

Reference

clams are not dependent on filter feed phyto. they are primarily photosynthetic and can sustain themselves on the food provided by there zooxanthellae, through light alone. clams will extract dissolved nitrogen and phosphorus from the water and pass onto there zoox and then the zoox gives the clam sugars as food. clams will filter phyto (and bacteria and zooplankton) but when they do this all they are doing is extracting the same N & P and passing it to the zoox.

one of the arguments of that article is that clams mantles are not fully developed untill they are 4" in length. this is completely false. clams mantles are fully developed and full of zoox within week of metamorphosis. it also says that clams mantles are not large enough to house enough zoox to support the clam untill its 4", false again. the size of a clams mantle is proportionate to the size of the clam through out its life.

another argument some people have for feeding phyto is that clams have a fully functioning digestive system and that if they didn't need to feed they wouldn't have this. so lets look at this. clams gills are multifunctional, they are use for respiration and capturing particulate matter. they can get rid of the gills or they wouldn't be able to breath , clams also constantly replenish there zoox, they use their gills to do this.

the stomach is connected to the zooxanthellae tubular system (where the zoox live) the stomach passes new zoox from the gills to the ZTS , processes the sugars the zoox make (to feed the clam) and pass old, dead and un-viable zoox to the anus.

even though the digestive system isnt needed for filtering phyto, it is still used as a basic function of the clam.

if you want to feed your clams phyto, go ahead. but dont think that they will die if you dont. as long as you have strong light and N & P (fish pee and poo) in the water the clam will do just fine !


From klumpp and lucas 94

It is now established that photosynthates fixed by
symbiotic zooxanthellae are able to provide sufficient
energy to cover at least the metabolic needs of Tridacna
gigas (Fisher et al. 1985, Mingoa 1988, Klumpp
et al. 1992), T squamosa (Trench et al. 1981), T. derasa
and T. tevoroa (Klumpp & Lucas 1994

Contribution of symbiotic algae to
host respiratory requirements

The absolute amounts of carbon translocated daily by the zooxanthellae to the host (TP in Table 4) follow similar patterns of variation with size and species of clam described for P, That IS, in the smaller slze categones (0 1 to 10 g tissue weight) Trldacna gJgas has a considerable
nutritional advantage over the other 3 species, gaining 2 to 20 t~mes more energy in the form of photosynthates TP was similar in the 3 species
whlch attain 100 g In all 4 specles and size categories of clam TP was well in excess of host respiratory needs (RH in Table 4) Calculation of the percent contnbution of zooxanthellae to the host's daily carbon requirements for routine respiration (l e CZAR = (TPIRH)lOO)a, s
glven in Table 4 shows that symbiotic algae were capable of provldlng 2 to 4 times more carbon than requlred by the
host for respiration CZAR ~ncreased with clam size in all species, except in H h~ppopus, which had a comparatively
high and more constant CZAR of -340% The lowest CZAR value was
186 % in the smallest T squamosa


This study actually indicates that clams may need to acquire additional nutrients through filter feeding as they grow larger. However there zoox through photosynthesis can still provide them with at least 2x there CE needs
 
this study was done to determine how clams acquired there zoox and what they did with them. two sets of clams were used, one was given zoox the other was not. they were both kept in micro filtered water and not allowed to receive any particulate. the only particulate that one set received was its initial dose of symbiotic zoox. these are very tiny clams, the kind everyone says cant live through photosynthesis alone. they did just fine

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0006-3185(198110)161:2<213:SDAAOZ>2.0.CO;2-N&size=LARGE
 
Myth:

T5s will save you on electricity and heat


Heat:
T5s produce the exact same amount of heat per watt as metal halide, but are significantly more difficult to remove the heat. This is for multiple reasons
1. Larger surface area means smaller temperature gradient. Its tougher to evacuate heat because they're not as far from room temperature
2. "Air restriction" : T5 fixtures are much larger than MH fixtures, and make getting proper air flow between the tank and fixture much more difficult. This in effect traps the heat in.

The whole perception of MH producing more heat is based on surface area. T5 bulbs have approximately 1w/inch. MH have 50+ w/inch.

Think of it this way: Which produces more heat? My 900 degree soldering iron, or you 150 degree hair dryer? Its your hair dryer.

Electricity:

Wattage is wattage. There are certain tank sizes that T5 works better for on a wattage basis (4x54w on a 55, vs 2x175w). There are certain tanks that it works worse for (18-24x39w on a 6x3x2 tank, vs 2x250/2x400w in lumenarcs)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10653214#post10653214 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mbbuna
clams are not dependent on filter feed phyto. they are primarily photosynthetic and can sustain themselves on the food provided by there zooxanthellae, through light alone.
I don't know why you are addressing this comment to me? Where did I ever say that? Are you confusing what I posted with something you may have read on DT's website?

I have NEVER said that clams are "dependent of filter feeding phyto." Besides, phytoplankton is not the only thing they filter, it's just something that's available to purchase in the hobby. They probably get more energy filtering POM and DOM in the wild, but I haven't bothered to look that up.

What I have said is that I believe it's a good idea to feed live phytoplankton to clams in reef tanks, especially juveniles. I have NEVER said that it is necessary or that they are "dependent" on it.

clams will extract dissolved nitrogen and phosphorus from the water and pass onto there zoox and then the zoox gives the clam sugars as food. clams will filter phyto (and bacteria and zooplankton) but when they do this all they are doing is extracting the same N & P and passing it to the zoox.
Again, why is this comment addressed to me? Is this supposed to be something you think I'm not aware of? Or is it for the benefit of others reading your post?

one of the arguments of that article is that clams mantles are not fully developed untill they are 4" in length. this is completely false.
Are you referring to the article Dr. Ron Shimek wrote for DT's website? I didn't offer anything about his article at all in this thread except to point out to another member that the article in question was written by Ron Shimek.

I have to assume that in spite of the fact that you are addressing this comment to me, it is really about Shimek's article and you expect me to respond to something he wrote?

If I remember Shimek's thinking on tridacnids, he is of the opinion that juveniles (sub-adults) benefit from feedings with live phytoplankton. You will have to ask him whether he considers that a necessity or just a nice thing to do. IMO, it's just a nice thing to do.

clams mantles are fully developed and full of zoox within week of metamorphosis. it also says that clams mantles are not large enough to house enough zoox to support the clam untill its 4", false again. the size of a clams mantle is proportionate to the size of the clam through out its life.
Again, you seem to be commenting on something Dr. Shimek apparently wrote in his article, right?

Juvenile clams in their natural environment do obtain a substantial portion of their carbon requirements through filtering -- dissolved organic matter, dissolved particulate matter, phytoplankton, etc. As they mature, more and more of their energy needs are met via photosynthesis of their symbiotic zooxanthellae. That's the way it happens in the wild. I assume you have no argument with this but are somehow expressing an opinion about the way Dr. Shimek expressed something similar but in terms you don't agree with? I haven't even read his entire article, I merely pulled out that one quote that someone else lifted out of context.

another argument some people have for feeding phyto...
My only argument for feeding live phytoplankton, as I have previously stated in this thread, is because I believe it's a nice available food source that benefits the clams, especially juvenile clams.

:D
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10652902#post10652902 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fishdoc11
OK Ninong I can't take it anymore...lets see your clams:)
All I had were three maximas and two croceas. I lost all of my invertebrates and three fairy wrasses in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. I maintained the tank as a FOWLR following Katrina until I sold it last year due to a move.

P.S. -- I found a couple old pics from February 2004 online: Here and here and here and here. The tank was approximately 7 months old then.
 
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