Cone vs Regular

[hart24601]

You are all missing one key point: There is not one single independently verifiable standard for skimmer performance.

NOT ONE.

There is no way to tell independently which works best because the industry has no way to measure it. All evidence for or against is all anecdotal. Each aquarium is different with so many variables that controlling for just one is all but impossible.

Choose a skimmer you like, run it 24/7, and keep it clean. Skimmers are just one part of a very complicated system. They can help keep things going smoothly but they aren't the end all and be all of filtration in our tanks.

JMO.

Totally agree.

But what are we suppose to argue with strangers about on the internet then? I guess we still have lighting and DSB...

 

[Shawn O]

Totally agree.

But what are we suppose to argue with strangers about on the internet then? I guess we still have lighting and DSB...

Ford vs. Chevy?

RE said it pretty good. To many variables to say one way or the other with something like this. I guess you could make an argument that one style is better than the other if volume, water flow and air flow are identical to each other, but this would have to be done on the exact same tank (in a short period of time, feeding the exact same amounts) and would be meaningless when the same equipment is transferred to a completely different system.

 

[FSUwxman]

Never been a fan of cone skimmers myself.

 

[Klaus Jansen]

Each aquarium is different with so many variables that controlling for just one is all but impossible.

@RocketEngineer

100 % right ... :beer:

The best skimmer is useless if you can not properly adjust it.

best regards .. Klaus

 

[slief]

However they also reduce head pressure on the needlewheel pump resulting in increased air. This reduced head pressure also allows them to be taller which increases contact time. M

I'd argue that a 24" tall cone skimmer will have the same head pressure that a 24" tall standard body skimmer out. I've always been under the impression that head pressure is based on pressure generated from the vertical height of the water and isn't dependant on the volume or width around it.

No arguments about ATB though. Of all the true cones out there, they are the best hands down and among the better skimmers on the market regardless of cone vs standard design.

That said without the benefit of intellect, perhaps ?
I've had nothing but good sized home type skimmers (MTC,deltec, klaes,ect ,ect) But I've seen a decent size RK2 commercial on a good size tank, and although that person used,but very small amounts of ozone into the skimmer, the tank look absolutely amazing !

Seems you and I have more in common than I thought. I still have a 5' Klaes skimmer in my storage that gave me many years of great service. Heck, it was still working when I took it offline and it was by far one of the best skimmers of it's time and way ahead of itself. My only gripe with them was the carbon bushing replacements and the fact that those bushing became scarce. Funny thing is that I was getting my spare carbon bushing from somebody out of Canada which I see is where you are from. It's a shame the bushing sources dried up for those skimmers as I would have used mine for many years longer. One of these days I need to dig it out of the shed and sell it!

FWIW, I agree in that I personally have found standard body designed skimmers to be more stable and overall better performers. I've run cones such as the Alpha's and now run a BK Supermarin which I find to be much more stable and consistent. Part of that is likely due to the Alpha's insanely large neck diameter but often the cones tend to be fussy and much more sensitive to the air to water ratio as well as sump levels.

 

[bernie lyons]

cones vs columns

cones vs columns

I'd argue that a 24" tall cone skimmer will have the same head pressure that a 24" tall standard body skimmer out. I've always been under the impression that head pressure is based on pressure generated from the vertical height of the water and isn't dependant on the volume or width around it.

No arguments about ATB though. Of all the true cones out there, they are the best hands down and among the better skimmers on the market regardless of cone vs standard design.




Seems you and I have more in common than I thought. I still have a 5' Klaes skimmer in my storage that gave me many years of great service. Heck, it was still working when I took it offline and it was by far one of the best skimmers of it's time and way ahead of itself. My only gripe with them was the carbon bushing replacements and the fact that those bushing became scarce. Funny thing is that I was getting my spare carbon bushing from somebody out of Canada which I see is where you are from. It's a shame the bushing sources dried up for those skimmers as I would have used mine for many years longer. One of these days I need to dig it out of the shed and sell it!

FWIW, I agree in that I personally have found standard body designed skimmers to be more stable and overall better performers. I've run cones such as the Alpha's and now run a BK Supermarin which I find to be much more stable and consistent. Part of that is likely due to the Alpha's insanely large neck diameter but often the cones tend to be fussy and much more sensitive to the air to water ratio as well as sump levels.

Sold my 5ft Klaes years ago but it was ahead of it's time for sure,in fact it paved the way for modern day pinwheels!
There was a "scientific" test done with various small skimmers a few years ago which included several cone skimmers and of course column skimmers. It was done by adding various components of organic waste into a tank and then analyzing the (DOC',s ect ,ect). At the end of the test the column skimmers which included bubble king's own column and cone skimmer and various of other manufactures, came out among the top performers (column design) alone with other column designs..The cone design's were below par for efficiency in removing various amounts of organic waste in comparison . Now this was done under strict guidelines by real scientist's in an "objective" environment (no living fish or corals ,live rock ,ect.) However , it does add something to the fact that cones are may be not as effective perhaps in removal organic waste product as their counterparts ?

 

[DavidinGA]

Sold my 5ft Klaes years ago but it was ahead of it's time for sure,in fact it paved the way for modern day pinwheels!
There was a "scientific" test done with various small skimmers a few years ago which included several cone skimmers and of course column skimmers. It was done by adding various components of organic waste into a tank and then analyzing the (DOC',s ect ,ect). At the end of the test the column skimmers which included bubble king's own column and cone skimmer and various of other manufactures, came out among the top performers (column design) alone with other column designs..The cone design's were below par for efficiency in removing various amounts of organic waste in comparison . Now this was done under strict guidelines by real scientist's in an "objective" environment (no living fish or corals ,live rock ,ect.) However , it does add something to the fact that cones are may be not as effective perhaps in removal organic waste product as their counterparts ?

I remember that test; that's why I said regular skimmers were better up above.

Cones are just another gimmick reason for them to charge more money imo....

 

[bernie lyons]

cones

cones

I remember that test; that's why I said regular skimmers were better up above.

Cones are just another gimmick reason for them to charge more money imo....

Agree 100% !!!

 

[bernie lyons]

petg material

petg material

Hi Bernie

this information is incorrect... example : .. BK-Double Cone´s are made from 10 mm/ 0,4 inches, PETG-Plates in a vacuum-thermoforming machine, no injection molding bodys... Nobody make skimmerbodys in injection-molding... 10mm PETG is much more expensive as a simple acrylic pipe. What you need is a thermoforming tooling and the cost of them are very high...

The manufacturing costs are reduced by less handwork not by materialcost. thats the reason, why cone designed skimemrs are cheaper as columns-skimmers

Any years ago, we build *rocketskimmers* and i can tell you, the monster highskimmers are not better in performance as a good balanced needlewheel skimmer. Contact time is not the keyfactor for good skimming. High skimmers have to much backpressure and the pumps need much more Power, as low skimmers. In my old tank i use 2 high skimmers ( 300 cm) and a BK 500 Deluxe ( 70 cm) blow up the high skimmers.

best regards ... Klaus

Klaus, I'm not sure what you mean by"simple acrylic" but I have seen and touched your skimmers bodies and I find it less dense or thick than some comptetitors "cast" acrylic bodies. I have a hard time swallowing that thick cast acrylic material costs less than your thinner bodied skimmers. .just my 2 cents...

 

[Klaus Jansen]

Hi Bernie ...

What does the wall thickness of a skimmer to do with the efficiency? The question here is whether a Cone is better than a column.

We manufacturing both skimmers... Cones and columns. The materialcost for a conebody are higher as a acrylic pipe. The handwork-cost on a column-skimmer is much more. Thats the reason, why manufacturers going to thermoforming bodys....
About the question, are cones better als regular skimmers ? No,he is not better,.... a columnskimmer has more space and the turbulences are less. A column-skimmerbody has maybe 15-20 % better performance.
The most important part on a skimmer ist not the design of the body, it´s the pump and performance of the nozzles and needlewheels.
The balance of all them, make a good skimmer...



Have a nice Day ...:beer:

.. Klaus

 

[bernie lyons]

cones vs column skimmers

cones vs column skimmers

Hi Bernie ...

What does the wall thickness of a skimmer to do with the efficiency? The question here is whether a Cone is better than a column.

We manufacturing both skimmers... Cones and columns. The materialcost for a conebody are higher as a acrylic pipe. The handwork-cost on a column-skimmer is much more. Thats the reason, why manufacturers going to thermoforming bodys....
About the question, are cones better als regular skimmers ? No,he is not better,.... a columnskimmer has more space and the turbulences are less. A column-skimmerbody has maybe 15-20 % better performance.
The most important part on a skimmer ist not the design of the body, it´s the pump and performance of the nozzles and needlewheels.
The balance of all them, make a good skimmer...



Have a nice Day ...:beer:

.. Klaus

Thank you Klaus for setting the record straight about column skimmers having superior performance over cone skimmers !

Bernie

 

[kl3377]

So....if I have the space the better choice would be column as it will perform better and be less expensive. If I can't fit the column then the space saving cone skimmer is a reasonable solution.

 

[CHSUB]

A column-skimmerbody has maybe 15-20 % better performance

seems impossible to me that one could determine that regular is better than cone and to state that it's 15-20% better performance is even more outlandish!

the test i remember from sanjay concluded that all the skimmers worked about the same, only difference was how fast they removed "stuff".

Disclaimer: i use a Vertex Alpha 300 Cone!!!

 

[ericarenee]

A column-skimmerbody has maybe 15-20 % better performance

seems impossible to me that one could determine that regular is better than cone and to state that it's 15-20% better performance is even more outlandish!

the test i remember from sanjay concluded that all the skimmers worked about the same, only difference was how fast they removed "stuff".

Disclaimer: i use a Vertex Alpha 300 Cone!!!

not to mention 15 to 20 percent is a small margin considering the human error rate on setting up a each skimmer as well as other variables...

 

[bernie lyons]

test

test

A column-skimmerbody has maybe 15-20 % better performance

seems impossible to me that one could determine that regular is better than cone and to state that it's 15-20% better performance is even more outlandish!

the test i remember from sanjay concluded that all the skimmers worked about the same, only difference was how fast they removed "stuff".

Disclaimer: i use a Vertex Alpha 300 Cone!!!

Actually that test had nothing to do with Sanjay,that was something else. And the test was to see which skimmer was most efficient in removing organic waste within a time base ... the best skimmer in that test was an venturi design.
Sanjays test was comparing his home made etss skimmer clone with a beckett nozzle , vs an bubble king 500 clone with the red dragon pump and pinwheel combo that bubble king uses. The test took place at Sanjays home on his beautiful 500 gallon tank for a period of a month for each skimmer. At the end of the test both skimmers skimmate were analyzed then charted for comparison's sake .The home made etss with the beckett nozzle beat the bubble king clone by quite a margin and consistently.

 

[bernie lyons]

test comparison's

test comparison's

not to mention 15 to 20 percent is a small margin considering the human error rate on setting up a each skimmer as well as other variables...

Well how do you explain the tests done a few years by marine biologists and scientists in a controlled environment , comparing several column and cone skimmers and the results showed the column skimmers outperformed the cones by quite a margin ? ... by the way doc's and several other organic waste's were measured and calculated carefully to as to avoid "human error" .

 

[tkeracer619]

Because none of the skimmers can possibly be adjusted to optimum settings nor comparable settings. There is no easily (or even practical) way to adjust them all to some standard setting.

Not going to argue which is better because there is no real general answer. I've seen bucket skimmers that function better than commercials. Getting the air right, the water flow right, and the bubble size small is by far more important than the shape of the skimmer body. Seen plenty of cone skimmers skimming like the one in klaus's photo. If we are going base what is better on that misleading photo then my frankenstien rock vat skimmer is better than your downdraft beckett nuclear powered 42' tall biowheel ozone injecting miracle skimmer. Misleading? Yeah, look at the color of the water compared to the white acrylic. With that many docs an air stone in a pvc pipe works just fine, if that isn't a rock curing vat I would say that skimmer is under performing due to the crazy yellow color of the water. A real test is once it is installed in your system does it keeps docs manageable? Unfortunately it costs money to do so. Go off others recomendations for what works for them on similar bioloads, one that fits, is made with quality components, and work to adjust it for best performance.

I mean... come on. This is an amirical body, css65 cup, some venturi I found at the bottom of my junk box, and a maxijet that I took the impeller to a table saw to put teeth in it. I had to tape the lid on and the vent holes closed to keep the thing from blowing foam all over the place.

 

[gcarroll]

Well how do you explain the tests done a few years by marine biologists and scientists in a controlled environment , comparing several column and cone skimmers and the results showed the column skimmers outperformed the cones by quite a margin ? ... by the way doc's and several other organic waste's were measured and calculated carefully to as to avoid "human error" .

Looks like he answered that here?

The best skimmer is useless if you can not properly adjust it.

best regards .. Klaus

 

[bernie lyons]

skimmer adjustment

skimmer adjustment

Looks like he answered that here?

So your saying that these biologists, scientists,involved in the testing, did not ,could not ,don't know how to adjust skimmers ? sort of taking the "high" road isn't it if the results are not to one's liking ?

 

[tkeracer619]

Depends on if they sleep at a holiday inn.