Congradulations MIAMI HEAT!!!

[SCARYBO]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7603349#post7603349 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by diddye
Tex winters, phil jackson, and even pat riley wanted shaq to develop more skills. It not only would make him a better player, but extend his basktball life. He is too predictable and once his age shows(like it does now) he is easier to guard. Why else do you think jabbar lasted so long? He is supposed to use his size....but his move is to back up back up back up then dunk. He'll do a few other moves but nowhere near what many centers can do. Hes one of the best centers ever(top 5) but what seperates him is his determination.

I have to disagree. Tex, Phil, and Riley never had problems with his skill level. They felt he was the best option in a triangle offense. They also felt his decision making in the triangle was great. They had problems with his conditioning/ weight. Shaq never learned to master his weight. He has a habit of letting himself get fat during the offseason. That has noting to do with skill. It has to do with commitment.

What moves do you expect him to use in the lane? Jabbar never was a shooter. He was 7 feet with long arms. His primary move was the sky hook. A near impossible move to block with his physique. A smart player maximizes his natural ability and learns to adapt. M.J. in his early years was a slasher/ power player. He used his speed and strength to get to the rim. He was a poor outside shooter. He only developed an outside shot later in his career when he couldnt depend on dunking in the lane. He adapted.

Shaq is in the twilight of his career. This has nothing to do with his skill. He is a big man. Playing at his size in his 30's is amazing. Centers do not have careers like perimeter players. Kareem was blessed to play as long as he did, but his skills had deteriorated from his early career( just like Shaq).

 

[diddye]

I again have to disagree. Shaq always had great passing abilities which is great for the triangle in facilitating the offense. But read any of tex winters comments or phils books and you will see that they wanted him to be more mobile on the block lessening his fouls and not being predictable. Compare how many times he does a drop step now with years past. I'm not expecting sky hooks, but more jump hooks would be nice. Changing directions, flip shots....anything but a backup then dunk is considered skill. Yes he had a problem w/ commitment which led to a high weight. That weight limited his movements and scoring/defensive abilities...all of which limited his skills. Are you going to tell me a fat person can move better then a skinnier one?

 

[turtlespd]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7599924#post7599924 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SteveOhh
Ummm...........not NBA rules, but during Kareem's college career they outlawed dunking because he was so dominant. Thats where Kareem developed the skyhook. If they changed any rules to make Shaq less dominant, it should be that he has to shoot all his shots from the free throw line. Shaq can't make free throws to save his life. Why do you think other teams take the "hack-a-Shaq" defensive scheme? Free throws people!! How many games has Shaq lost because of his lack of making free throws? Kinda like how the NHL changed the rules to deal w/ the 80's Edmonton Oilers.

Shaq is a whining crybaby if things don't go exactly the way Shaq wants them to. Shaq says D. Wade is the best coach he's ever played for & Riley is the best coach he's ever played for. Sounds like a baby crying sour grapes to me. They'll never win 3 rings in Miami. Riley will never have 9 rings. Wade will never hang 81 on the board. Sahall I go on???

Steve

LOL, i take it your a Hard core laker fan! lol.

The only sour grapes i see is you. Were talking about Shaq skill and if anyone says he has none, well that is jut plain ignorant and blind. He is a dominant figure int he NBA period. Maybe not as dominant as he was in the pass but still a big impact in anygame. How many games has Shaq lost to missing free throws humm, great assumption. How many games has Ben wallce lost cause of free thows,lo. Not everone can be a 70%+ free throw shooter and that is only a small portion of what a player must do. All you want to do is compare with the lakers,lol. Talking abotu Kobes 81 points? lol, Great feat yes but hey Wade got a ring wayyyyy before kobe ever did and on his team! lol not Shaq team. We can go on and on about who is better. The fact remains, Miami Heat did what no one thought they could.

 

[SCARYBO]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7603796#post7603796 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by diddye
I again have to disagree. Shaq always had great passing abilities which is great for the triangle in facilitating the offense. But read any of tex winters comments or phils books and you will see that they wanted him to be more mobile on the block lessening his fouls and not being predictable. Compare how many times he does a drop step now with years past. I'm not expecting sky hooks, but more jump hooks would be nice. Changing directions, flip shots....anything but a backup then dunk is considered skill. Yes he had a problem w/ commitment which led to a high weight. That weight limited his movements and scoring/defensive abilities...all of which limited his skills. Are you going to tell me a fat person can move better then a skinnier one?

No a fat person is not more mobile then a skinny person, but that wasnt your original point. You stated Shaq was a dissapointment to Phil, Tex and Riley because he didnt develop more skills. That wasnt the case. Weight has nothing to do with skill. It has to do with commitment and self control. You cant practice skinny.

They wanted Shaq to control his weight so he could be more mobile. They never disputed his skills. When you are overweight and tired you dont shift into position to be an effective defender. Shaq got fouls because of that. Not because he didnt develop an outside jump shot.

 

[Gisho]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7602986#post7602986 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Texsun
I was coached to move, to screen, to make the game fluid, not have the best player pound it inside while the rest watched the shot clock tick down hoping he will pass it to me.

When and where in the world did I state that: (paraphrased) "having the best player pound it inside while the rest watch" is good TEAM basketball? On the contrary, setting picks, moving without the ball, and passing IS good basketball. Can't you see that we are saying the SAME THING???

[/B][/QUOTE] The great Lakers teams you refered to play nothing like the Hakeem's Rockets so I'm not exactly sure what you were taught or how you believe the game should be played.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Again, another baseless comment and to be frank, bizarre tangent that you have gone off on here. How does this translate to my supposed lack of knowledge of how the game should be played?

[/B][/QUOTE] If you are talking about effective, then sure, but so is Shaq and his thuggery. [/B][/QUOTE]

So on one hand you admit to his "thuggery", while in the next breath you say:

[/B][/QUOTE] Shaq is actually a pretty skilled and willing passer... [/B][/QUOTE]

Which is it then? Thug, or skilled and willing passer? The term "thug" does not conjure up images of a skilled player.
Should someone who is thought of or described as a "thug" be elevated to superstar status or be considered by some "the greatest center of the game, ever"? I don't think so and I don't mind telling others that I don't think so. It is you that has such a huge problem with me expressing my opinion.

[/B][/QUOTE] Sounds like the game is still in good shape, rewards team play and not all about "show and one-one moves to the basket and dunks" or that we should be concerned about the sports progression. [/B][/QUOTE]

The beauty about living here in America is that I can be concerned about whatever the heck I'd like to be concerned about and most/more importantly, voice my opinion about it. What is it that has you soooo concerned about my little old opinion? :lol:

C'mon, fess up, are you really David Stern in disguise? :lol:

[/B][/QUOTE]The assumption that you missed is that I meant pure AND holds interest. [/B][/QUOTE]

Ahhhh, now I'm supposed to read into your posts and make assumptions and it is my fault because I "missed" your assumption? You know what they say about making assumptions, right?.... Why don't you clearly and concisely state what you "mean" in your posts?

[/B][/QUOTE]Hockey is up there with cricket in terms of popularity nowadays. [/B][/QUOTE]

Does that make it any less relevant? A whole lot of people in Canada, Europe, and even here in the States would disagree with you on that one.

[/B][/QUOTE]I'll send you some "rock anemones" as a prize. Just post your address. [/B][/QUOTE]

Tsk, tsk. You should know by now that posting home addresses on a public internet board is not smart. Even little old me knows that! :lol:

Now, why don't you post your home address and I'll send you some of my friend's berghia nudibranch to clear up your nasty "rock anemone" problem. :lol:

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. As they say, arguing on the internet is like....so I so won't keep going on about it. If you absolutely MUST have the last word, as I suspect you might, then feel free and have at it.

Good day and I am happy that you think the state of the NBA and professional sports in general is just fine and dandy. I happen to disagree. Oh well....that's life.

 

[SteveOhh]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7602986#post7602986 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Texsun
The assumption that you missed is that I meant pure AND holds interest. Hockey is up there with cricket in terms of popularity nowadays. I'll send you some "rock anemones" as a prize. Just post your address.

How popular a sport is among the public doesn't constitute how enjoyable the sport is nor how talented the players are. If the sport is as popular as "cricket" is, that's all good. It just means that I have a better chance to get good tickets. Most people can't "hold interest" in hockey because they have no idea what the rules are. Give me a "pure" sport like hockey anyday over what the NBA has evolved into. Traveling can be called on any play.........................3 seconds???.......I think it's turned more into 5 seconds. Everytime Shaq walks (notice I didn't say run, cuz he don't do that often) into the offensive zone, he camps long enough in the lane to stake a land claim to the paint. Go ahead & be like the rest of the "former" Laker fans, but don't jump back on the bandwagon when it rolls around again. But then again certain So Californians have to follow the latest trend to fit in. I bet you owned a "pet rock" at one time huh??

 

[SteveOhh]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7603839#post7603839 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by turtlespd
LOL, i take it your a Hard core laker fan! lol.

The only sour grapes i see is you. Were talking about Shaq skill and if anyone says he has none, well that is jut plain ignorant and blind. He is a dominant figure int he NBA period. Maybe not as dominant as he was in the pass but still a big impact in anygame. How many games has Shaq lost to missing free throws humm, great assumption. How many games has Ben wallce lost cause of free thows,lo. Not everone can be a 70%+ free throw shooter and that is only a small portion of what a player must do. All you want to do is compare with the lakers,lol. Talking abotu Kobes 81 points? lol, Great feat yes but hey Wade got a ring wayyyyy before kobe ever did and on his team! lol not Shaq team. We can go on and on about who is better. The fact remains, Miami Heat did what no one thought they could.

I personally am not a Lakers fan, nor a fan of any team in the NBA. I could give a care less about who wins it all. Which makes me unbiased. You, on the other hand, seem to be a Shaq lover. You say Wade won it on his team, not Shaq's??? IF I remember right, Kobe was in LA before Shaq & they won after Shaq joiined the team. Kinda sounds like the same thing in Miami. If you are a professional athlete makeing millions of dollars, 70% is the minimum amount of FT's you should be making. They call them free throws for a reason.Who's mentioning Ben Wallace? Did anybody above say Ben Wallace was the greatest center of all time? People make statements, I give my opinions. A statement was said that Shaq is the greatest center of all time. I disagreed. If you can't make your free throws, you aren't the best ever. How many games has Shaq missed in his career due to injuries caused by him being out of shape? You figure that if you make $25 million a year, you can at least have a training schedule to be in shape when the season starts. Jerry Rice did (& for a lot less money btw).........This is what makes athletes like Jerry Rice the greatest at thier position & Shaq, while good & dominant at times, just above average & quite far from the greatest ever. He11, he's not even the greatest Laker center of all time. That goes to Kareem, who BTW, never bad mouthed his teammates or coaches........

 

[818]

Steve, a profesional athelte is a completley different thing to a profesional basketball player.

Ben hasnt been in the league long enough to be called that.

 

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7604275#post7604275 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SteveOhh
How popular a sport is among the public doesn't constitute how enjoyable the sport is nor how talented the players are. If the sport is as popular as "cricket" is, that's all good. It just means that I have a better chance to get good tickets. Most people can't "hold interest" in hockey because they have no idea what the rules are. Give me a "pure" sport like hockey anyday over what the NBA has evolved into. Traveling can be called on any play.........................3 seconds???.......I think it's turned more into 5 seconds. Everytime Shaq walks (notice I didn't say run, cuz he don't do that often) into the offensive zone, he camps long enough in the lane to stake a land claim to the paint. Go ahead & be like the rest of the "former" Laker fans, but don't jump back on the bandwagon when it rolls around again. But then again certain So Californians have to follow the latest trend to fit in. I bet you owned a "pet rock" at one time huh??

easy there, lol

 

[turtlespd]

Im not paticular to any team in genral but truely love the lakers deep down inside. I hate the way the team has gone since Kobe came to LA so i wait and wait till Kobe grows old and retires. Anyways, the reason i mentioned BEN wallace cause you were stating Shaq had no Skills!So i was using BEN as a reference. Im now under the impression that if you cant make free throws you have no skill. 30points a game doesnt mean much these days.
Shaq will run down and or outplay any past or present center. Past or present centers cannot Guard Shaq one on one. So that is why i feel he is a great candidate for one of the best centers. If you feel that Free throws define a player.

So to be clear now. Lets just say they play one on one at their primes. Is there really an argument? No center can really back down Shaq. They will have to play around him and yes he is a great defender also. So lets take Kareem" Great center" He is a finess player. He wont back down Shaq and will have to toss hooks all day. Does Kareem has any other moves? I cant recall and im being honest. Shaq can also Toss up a hook, and yes he was also helped by Kareem but he can do a lot more than just that. His foot work is second to none. Baseline play cant be stoped. Shaq just has too many moves. I would have loved to see Wilt play against players of this era but that would be impossible. Given Wilts size and power i would say It would be between them two as who was more dominant.

So i take it if you were an owner of a team eveyone on the team has to shoot 70% are you kidding? 70% is a really high average as far as NBA players go.

I guess you forget how many points he score on average.

Im a big fan of Basketball in general not too big on Shaq as you may think but i give credit where it is due. I hate Kobe to death but i can admit he is currently top 2 or 3 in the NBA. I know you feel shaq is a Poor free throw player and i agree but admit he cant be guarded one on one and is dominant overall.

 

[Texsun]

Geez, folks here sure get worked up over the basketball (and hockey!). I'll leave it to others to continue the bickering.

SteveOhh, easy there fella. As a Clippers season ticket holder for the past 6 years I wouldn't be caught dead on a Lakers bandwagon. Hockey is a fine sport, just not big with the kids. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[SteveOhh]

http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Scoring.jsp

Everyone on this list has a FT % better then 65% w/ the exception of Antoine Walker @ 57%, Rasheed Wallace @ 52% & Shaq @ 37%..................................37%..................are you kidding me?? Thats for all 4 rounds of the playoffs. It's a shame that someone who is called a professional shoots 37%...............How long would you or I have a job if we failed at something 63% of the time? Most of the players on the list have a better FG percentage. If you notice, most of the players have well over 70% FT percentage, so as an owner paying these guys millions of dollars, yes, I'd expect my team to shoot better then 70%. Remember they are called free throws.

"Hack-A-Shaq" is played by every team in the NBA when they are playing Miami. If Shaq was able to make FT's, there wouldn't be the case. IMO if he can't make his free throws, he can't be clutch in the final minutes. Michael made his FT's, Bird made his FT's, Magic made his FT's, Reggie Miller made his FT's, Wilt made his FT's, Bill Russell made his FT's.............These guys IMO are the best ever................a 37% FT shooter will never make that list!!!!

 

[SteveOhh]

Another point...........................Shaq never won a ring before Kobe & he didn't win another ring until D Wade came into his own..............when he didn't have a "great" player along side him (aka Orlando), he didn't win crap.

So is it really Shaq????................or the players around him????

 

[Texsun]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7605677#post7605677 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SteveOhh
Another point...........................Shaq never won a ring before Kobe & he didn't win another ring until D Wade came into his own..............when he didn't have a "great" player along side him (aka Orlando), he didn't win crap.

So is it really Shaq????................or the players around him????

Agreed, which supports my contention that Shaq's had less of an impact on the game than Gisho and others have suggested. The game today more than ever is a perimeter game and the rules are designed to keep it that way. Shaq can shove and mug everyone he wants to under the basket but it's not going to translate into a championship. And the fact that Shaq's teams have been able to win despite his horrid FT shooting is a testament to Kobe and Wade's abilities to carry him down the stretch. It's sad that Shaq is ending his career being Danny Fortson with a smile and six inches as he sure didn't start out that way.

 

[SteveOhh]

Of all the players eligible to make the list, Shaq far & away, had the worst FT percentage in the NBA..............46.9%.............wasn't even close either...........next lowest was Jamaal Magloire @ 53.5%

And then to post a 37% FT percentage when the pressure is on (the playoffs)......................Congrats Shaq, but this was D Wade's team.............Remember what happened in LA when it wasn't Shaq's city anymore???? Stay tuned!!!!!!

OK I'm done ranting............ :lol:

Steve

 

[Fmellish]

Basketball sucks!!













Just kidding.

It's ok. I don't follow sports much though. I've never seen Shaq play but I've seen him on talk shows and stuff, and I have to say that when you are that huge you probably don't need to know how to play bball. You can probably just walk over the opponents all the way to the net and then drop it in.

I'd like to see how well shaq faired if he was only 6' tall and 210 lbs.

You can ignore this post I'm totally ignorant when it comes to basketball.

I hear those guys catch a ton of tail though. That ain't so bad?

Josh

 

[turtlespd]

My point still stands. Overall he will dominate any center. We can argue back and forth about stats but the truth still remains. No center past or present wants to guard SHaq. Yes he cant make free throws in most cases but hey who is perfect?
Your stuck on only one thing, Shaq cant make free throws, Ok your point is proven and i agree. You dont give credit where it is due!

Yes Shaq today is less of a impact but still an important factor. Let Shaq play one on one and see waht happens,lol.

Shaq did have Penny haraway when he was in Orlando. Orlando is also where he started his carreer.

The players around Shaq is very much so important but where would other players be without a dominant center.

My point, he cant be guarded and can score 30 point average in his prime! Your point, he cant make free throws! got it.

 

[SteveOhh]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7605945#post7605945 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by turtlespd
The players around Shaq is very much so important but where would other players be without a dominant center.

Jordan & Pippen won 6 rings w/o a dominant center..................

I agree that Shaq is a great center, but not one of the greatest. You can argue one on one all you want.........fact remains it's a 5 on 5 game, so the one on one matchup matters nil (except on the playground).

Hardaway was good..................but not in Kobe's or Wade's class IMO.........

Like I said before, Congrats Shaq..................but keep your ego in check cuz w/o the teammates you have or have had, you'd still be ringless.....

 

[fc.pride]

wow, this thread sure mushroomed in 1 nite.
cant resist chiming in. i played hs ball, im's in college and pac-rim leagues (now i dont like ball much anymore) i personally never liked players like shaq.
i always felt they were just big bullies. no doubt shaq is/was very dominant due to his natural size and strength (which is god given) but without these attributes he would be normal not diesel. i see big guys at all levels tryout for the team but get cut so its not just all about size. shaq does have skills but his game is primarily power and strength over technique and finesse.
which i feel gets owned when you have a smaller guy with better skills. look at hakeem vs. shaq in 94.

dwade is just a phenom. he showed glimpses 3 years ago when he lamar odom and eddie jones were there. he's no mj and maybe not even better than kobe but worth a crazy salary next year. he deserved two rings.
reason why i feel he maybe better and more valuable to a team than kobe (even though kobe is more talented) is because he nows how to work within his team. kobe disrupts team chemistry. you cant just say hey look im not gonna shoot cause im trying to work the triangle and look we lose. but hey thats the nba these days.
i agree with the old timers on this thread.. i loved the days when i was a kid trying to be bird, magic or mj. those guys were champions who made me wanna play ball and listen to my coach and work drills after practice. kids nowadays just wanna crossover people and pull some stupid and1 trick rather than be fundamental and a good player.
im glad miami won because wade is inspirational to me and riles is an awesome coach. i still cant believe they won.

 

[turtlespd]

FC Pride,

When did you last play in Pac rim? Do you plan on Chinese association league also? If so What team?