Conspicuous angelfish

[jnc914]

Wayne- Good to hear you have changed your stance on a separate QT system since your Conspic thread. I remember some heated debate going on at that time regarding you QT'ing in a refuge attached to your display. Good luck with your new system

RDtrack- Like Wayne mentioned above, I would still proactively treat for parasites, especially if she is eating and appears to have settled into QT comfortably. A majority, if not all fish specimens going through the wholesale chain come in with parasites that may not be visible and may not present themselves until the fish is stressed. I know you don't want to run copper, but I would treat with Seachem Cupramine to eliminate parasites like ich, and then 2 back to back treatments of Prazi-pro (14 days total).
I have also done Formalin baths, especially when the fish first come in and just prior to being put in the QT. I also have a medicine chest full of antibiotics that have come in handy.

Good luck with your Conspic, she is a beauty!

 

[WayneL333]

Wayne- Good to hear you have changed your stance on a separate QT system since your Conspic thread last year. I remember some heated debate going on at that time regarding you QT'ing in a refuge attached to your display. Good luck with your new system

Yeah, my attitude towards qt has evolved since my last system, although I'm still hesitant to medicate with certain things such as copper. The only drug that I feel comfortable adding to a qt or DT is Prazi and I'll only do short baths with formalin. Otherwise, it's strictly natural remedies like TTM for me.

As for my baby conspic, I don't think I would change the way I handled things even now just because I could never get it to eat. That's my first requirement before I start any proactive treatments, because there's no way it'll start eating otherwise. The only thing I would do differently is I'd keep it in my shallow reef's refugium instead of my dt's refugium for obvious reasons.

That's why I have 3 seperate systems now. My shallow reef is a non-medicated qt system for both my corals and rare delicate fish that I don't want to put in a sterile tank with just pvc. Even if the delicate fish ends up having ich or other parasites, I can easily keep my shallow reef fallow without effecting my reef or fowlr tanks. But I still believe that a natural tank with aged water, live rock and sand with maybe some macro algae is a lot more non-stressful than a sterile tank with freshly made SW and pvc. That's actually how I first qt'd my recent femininus and Mauritus jeweled leopard wrasses. I made sure they were eating well and acclimated to going to the top of the tank to eat frozen food in tanks that were plumbed into my shallow reef system, before I removed them to perform ttm and the prazi treatments in my 20g tanks.

 

[LargeAngels]

I hate flukes and they are the hardest to spot so I treat everyone with Prazi. I know some are nervous about copper but like jnc914 I do treat with Cupramine. I have not done the ttm yet but plan on trying it soon.

 

[WayneL333]

I personally don't like copper. I remember reading an article that copper does more damage to a fish's internal organs than overall good to the fish. I see no need for copper in treating for ich and flukes since there are alternative and less caustic medications and methods out there such as Prazi, Formalin baths, and TTM.

Don't get me wrong, there are desperate situations out there where I may use copper to treat a parasite such as velvet or an unknown parasite, but then again, I've never heard of a fish recovering from velvet even with copper treatment.

 

[RDtrack]

RDtrack- Like Wayne mentioned above, I would still proactively treat for parasites, especially if she is eating and appears to have settled into QT comfortably. A majority, if not all fish specimens going through the wholesale chain come in with parasites that may not be visible and may not present themselves until the fish is stressed. I know you don't want to run copper, but I would treat with Seachem Cupramine to eliminate parasites like ich, and then 2 back to back treatments of Prazi-pro (14 days total).
I have also done Formalin baths, especially when the fish first come in and just prior to being put in the QT. I also have a medicine chest full of antibiotics that have come in handy.

Good luck with your Conspic, she is a beauty!

Thanks quick question on the Cupramine. I've read how to dose what I'm wondering is after the 14 days of treatment can I just remove it by putting carbon back in my hang on filter and doing a 5 to 10 gallon water change? Or do I have to completely empty my QT (37 gallons)? Or should I use a combination of cuprisorb and carbon?

I would then plan on waiting a week or so. Make sure there were no negative effects. And then start two treatments of Prazi. I've used Prazi before and I'm comfortable with it. I normally drop an air stone in when I do dose it not sure if it helps.

I'm a little nervous with anything copper as I've read they are sensitive to copper. So the question I keep asking myself is should I proactively treat even though there are now symptoms. Or should I just observe and then treat prazi-pro at the end of a 10 week QT.

I'm in no rush to add her to my DT, actually I'm working on an upgrade.

 

[LargeAngels]

Yes, and there are different types of coppers. Cupramine is "easier" on the fish and the only type of copper I would treat with. A good FW dip and Cupramine can cure velvet. Problem with velvet it is soooo fast that by the time you see it it is almost too late. All my angels have gone through Prazi and Cupramine.

The thing with any medication like copper is that it doesn't kill the eggs so you have to look at the whole ich/velvet life cycle. If I was treating a fish knowing it had ich/velvet I would do 5-6 weeks of treatment. Or transfer fish to a completely new/fresh QT after 14 days.

 

[WayneL333]

Yes, and there are different types of coppers. Cupramine is "easier" on the fish and the only type of copper I would treat with. A good FW dip and Cupramine can cure velvet. Problem with velvet it is soooo fast that by the time you see it it is almost too late. All my angels have gone through Prazi and Cupramine.

The thing with any medication like copper is that it doesn't kill the eggs so you have to look at the whole ich/velvet life cycle. If I was treating a fish knowing it had ich/velvet I would do 5-6 weeks of treatment. Or transfer fish to a completely new/fresh QT after 14 days.

I'm just curious, what is your success rate with Cupramine, ie. do you have fatalities at all during qt with it?

 

[RDtrack]

Yes, and there are different types of coppers. Cupramine is "easier" on the fish and the only type of copper I would treat with. A good FW dip and Cupramine can cure velvet. Problem with velvet it is soooo fast that by the time you see it it is almost too late. All my angels have gone through Prazi and Cupramine.

The thing with any medication like copper is that it doesn't kill the eggs so you have to look at the whole ich/velvet life cycle. If I was treating a fish knowing it had ich/velvet I would do 5-6 weeks of treatment. Or transfer fish to a completely new/fresh QT after 14 days.

So would you proactively treat with Cupramine? If so what can you talk me through your process with cupramine.

Thanks

 

[LargeAngels]

I'm just curious, what is your success rate with Cupramine, ie. do you have fatalities at all during qt with it?

I have no known fatalities that I can attribute to Cupramine. All angels (blueline, chrysurus, bluespot, flagfin, goldflake, bandit, flame, multi, regal, potters, venustus, multibarr, etc) have all gone through Cupramine, along with tangs, clowns and wrasses. Partly cause I'm paranoid about infecting any of the fish I already have.

 

[LargeAngels]

But, one thing I don't like about Cupramine is the method of measuring how much is in the water. Their test kit is hard to read and determine what shade of blue corresponds to what concentration level and other copper test kits don't read it properly.

 

[LargeAngels]

So would you proactively treat with Cupramine? If so what can you talk me through your process with cupramine.

Thanks

Personally? Yes, but that is because that is what has worked for me. If I don't see any signs of ich/velvet I usually don't medicate until the fish have been eating well. Treat in bare tank with just PVC for hiding (calcium will absorb the Cupramine.) I make sure I get the exact (or as close as I can) volume of the QT tank/system (I usually measure with a tape measure to determine volume) and follow directions for dosage (half on first day, second half second day.) Frequent water changes and add appropriate Cupramine for each gallon of water replaced. I check with Seachems kit, but as I said it is hard to read. The good thing is that it has a very wide affective range so needing to know the exact concentration isn't as important. Unless you have something in the system to absorb the Cupramine (calcium, carbon, etc.) the concentration level will remain stable.

 

[Dmorty217]

So would you proactively treat with Cupramine? If so what can you talk me through your process with cupramine.

Thanks

Being that you don't know much about cupramine and haven't ever used it I would say no way in hell I would use it on the Conpic... TTM is half the amount of time and much more forgiving than cupramine is. If you had used it before I would say go for it. Angels don't like copper more than most fish anyway... Chloroquine Phosphate would be my first choice after TTM but thats just me

 

[Dmorty217]

But, one thing I don't like about Cupramine is the method of measuring how much is in the water. Their test kit is hard to read and determine what shade of blue corresponds to what concentration level and other copper test kits don't read it properly.

This is the biggest drawback with it

 

[LargeAngels]

Agree. Unless there is a problem I wouldn't attempt anything you are not familiar on with a fish like a conspic.

 

[RDtrack]

Thanks for the advice. No I was just pming Dmorty that no way no how am I going to proactively treat a conspic.

I'll hold her in observation for at least 10 weeks and then I may do a round of prazi. But we'll face that decision when I get there.

 

[aznepydna]

But, one thing I don't like about Cupramine is the method of measuring how much is in the water. Their test kit is hard to read and determine what shade of blue corresponds to what concentration level and other copper test kits don't read it properly.

I use a Hach pocket colorimeter. You must use CuVer2 reagents in saltwater for it to be accurate. $500 is a small price to pay considering how much our fish cost.

 

[LargeAngels]

So the Hatch with CuVer2 reagents measures Cupramiine properly in saltwater? Do you have a link to that info?

 

[aznepydna]

Hach tech support told me that the CuVer2 is made to measure copper in saltwater. Cupramine is copper so I assume it works with it. Maybe Seachem would be able to answer your question better.

 

[las]

I've used cupramine on many angels and even puffers.... They all handled it very well. Just my experience.

 

[Dmorty217]

The problem is reading the test kit correctly, cupramine itself is very safe when dosed correctly as far as copper goes