COPPER the potential hidden killer in a reef tank

[BeanAnimal]

Graham,

I sense a level of frustration on his part becuase you appear to side stepping the chemistry and logic to derive you base point.

I think we can all agree that COPPER in the reef is a bad thing and that there are many means of import. The very least of our worries is import via our change or top-off water. I tried to illustrate this when I posed you with the question of salt and food a few pages back.

Your reasoning with regard to source water import requires abnormaly high levels of copper in the input AND a non-functioning RO stage AND a non-functioning DI stage AND almost non-existant export and water changes.

If the chemistry and logic were any different, then we would have rashes of copper poisoning attributed to unknow sources.

Now if your are infering that we have a widespread copper pandemic in our aquaria and none of us know any better, then we still have to deal with the fact that contribution from food and salt is several magnitudes higher than that of the source water in ALMOST ALL system.

To make an analogy, we are talking about second hand smoke hurting the lungs of pack-a-day smokers.

 

[jeff@zina.com]

So the question really becomes how much copper in a closed system is acceptable the organisms we keep, not how much copper is in NSW.

Oh crap. Another research project.

Jeff

 

[jeff@zina.com]

I really don't think it benefits this thread to carry on this dialogue any further"¦.you are getting increasingly more and more contentious.

I kind of agree that this discussion is moot. Nobody will change their opinions here, it's like arguing religion. The ideas posed are interesting, possibly deserving of additional research but, too me at least, not worth the time/effort/expense.

I've enjoyed the stimulation, my curiosity has been piqued and I leave it for others to do the definitive research on this. I have tougher problems to solve in my tanks. Like how to patch the roof leak over my frag tank.

Jeff

 

[GrahamJr]

Graham,

"¦"¦"¦"¦.I tried to illustrate this when I posed you with the question of salt and food a few pages back.

"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦..

If the chemistry and logic were any different, then we would have rashes of copper poisoning attributed to unknow sources.

Now if your are infering that we have a widespread copper pandemic in our aquaria and none of us know any better, then we still have to deal with the fact that contribution from food and salt is several magnitudes higher than that of the source water in ALMOST ALL system.

To make an analogy, we are talking about second hand smoke hurting the lungs of pack-a-day smokers.

Do any of you bother to even check when someone makes a statement like, " fact that copper contribution from food and salt is several magnitudes higher than that of the source water in ALMOST ALL system"

Where do you come up with this stuff? The addition of copper from makeup salt averages only 30ppb"¦.food is insignificant. The water from our homes can be as high 1300 ppb and it will still meet EPA water quality even before we try to remove the copper.

There are homes throughout out this nation that have water leaving the taps and it is virtually blue, because of various plumbing and electrical issue. READ the attached. Copper corrosion and blue water in residential water system

Stop sticking you heads in the sand and saying copper is a non-issue. Maybe you are lucky and it is a non-issue for you that does not mean it is a non-issue for your neighbor or millions of others. And don't be too sure it is a non-issue for you just because your tank hasn't hit the wall"¦yet.

How many people do you know that started in this hobby and never added RO/DI equipment until they lost thousands of dollars in fish and coral. How many people do you know that still don't use either RO or DI.

I'm not trying to scare any one. I'm trying to bring awareness. I know not everyone has home water systems that have high copper content. But if you will study the EP studies you will see millions and millions do have a high copper issue.

I fully understand it isn't a universal issue. I have a friend that has the most beautiful reef tank you could imagine. He lives in the country and draws his water from his own well directly out of a Florida aquifer. He doesn't even treat his water except for basically adding 2 part calcium. His tank is 10 years old and beautiful. But, if you take that same water and put through a local water treatment plant his neighbors could have an issue.

Read the following from University of Florida on copper. They don't exactly agree with Dave's blathering about copper never coming backinto solution inside a reef tank. Their recommended concentration of copper for treating ich is less than what comes out of a lot of peoples tap water. Use of Copper in Marine Aquaculture and Aquarium Systems

And Dave'c comments about the efficiency of DI filters"¦..I'm sorry he doesn't have a clue, and I'm tired of arguing for arguing sake with him. As I previously noted I hold 5 process and commercial patents for systems that allow for more uniform distribution of fluid through media. Fluid flow through filter medium in a filter cartridge is not laminar and results in a condition known as wicking or short circuiting. Wicking occurs when the fluid flows in the direction of least
resistance which tends to be areas between the inner wall of the tubular housing and the powdered filter medium. Wicking results in the fluid bypassing the majority of the surface area of the granular filter medium.

I will restate over again"¦.you may have a copper issue in your home water system and not even know it, and you may not. If you have a reef tank, you need an RO/DI system, unless your lucky like my friend and live over an aquifer. If you use an RO/DI system do not believe it is the end of all potential copper issues, especially if you are unlucky and your home drinking water measures very high in copper.

When you are trying to block water that can easily be very high in copper on one side of a filter, from getting to the other side, a little mistake and it doesn't take very long to poison the system. RO/DI do not last for ever and they can fail. If your raw water has high copper content you will always have a risk of having gradual increases in copper in your tank that can slowly strangle it.

Running additional copper removal media like Cuprisorb or if you have the SPS bug, Zeo's zeolite is a cheap insurance policy. Not renewing a RO/DI system in a timely manner or simply having high rates of DI bypass in a nearly spent DI media, can all allow excess copper intrusion.

Quote, "we would have rashes of copper poisoning attributed to unknow sources"

And just what makes you think we don't right now? I believe here are alot of reef keepers who's tanks are in a slow copper death syndrome. Just because it may take a few years doesn't mean it is not happening. You can be poisoned with arsenic over many months before you die.

I think Dave should check his water supply for high copper...:spin1:

 

[BeanAnimal]

Do any of you bother to even check when someone makes a statement like
The addition of copper from makeup salt averages only 30ppb"¦.
..The water from our homes can be as high 1300 ppb

Taking note of your wording:

averages 40ppb
can be as high as 1300pbb

We are NOT running our salt through a copper removal media and we know it HAS copper in it.

We ARE running our source water through copper removal media and we it COULD have copper in it.

There are homes throughout out this nation that have water leaving the taps and it is virtually blue

And there are homes that have radon levels thousands of times the safe level, and homes that have raw sewage in their tap water, and homes that have toxic levels of mold.

Just becuse those things exist, does not mean that the AVERAGE or even a meaningful cross section of reefers are exposed to them.

You are using worst case scenarios as if they were a mainstream problem.

As I previously noted I hold 5 process and commercial patents for systems that allow for more uniform distribution of fluid through media. Fluid flow through filter medium in a filter cartridge is not laminar and results in a condition known as wicking or short circuiting. Wicking occurs when the fluid flows in the direction of least
resistance which tends to be areas between the inner wall of the tubular housing and the powdered filter medium. Wicking results in the fluid bypassing the majority of the surface area of the granular filter medium.

Your patents don't change the chemistry. As Dave pointed out, the copper ions have a higher affinity to the media in question and therefore the small percentage that is left after the RO stage will be the first to be removed, channeling in the DI stage or not.

That means we go full circle to "worst case" and only have a problem with the end user DOES have high copper in their source water AND does not maintain their RO stage AND their DI stage.

I will restate over again"¦.you may have a copper issue in your home water system and not even know it, and you may not. If you have a reef tank, you need an RO/DI system, unless your lucky like my friend and live over an aquifer. If you use an RO/DI system do not believe it is the end of all potential copper issues, especially if you are unlucky and your home drinking water measures very high in copper.

AND you fail to maintain BOTH the RO stage and DI stage...

When you are trying to block water that can easily be very high in copper on one side of a filter, from getting to the other side, a little mistake and it doesn't take very long to poison the system.

Counting change near the tank and dropping a penny in can be deadly as well, or overdosing ALK, Calcium or failing to set a thermostat properly.

Most of you concern is predicated on the possible simultanous failure of multiple systems or processes. The same logic can by applied to any number of systems that we rely on for our aquariums.

Again, I have no issue with your added filtration steps, or even advocating the precaution to others. I simply feel that you are extremely overstating the probability and/or real world occurance of copper being introduced to a reef aquarium by those who use and even marginally maintain their source water filtration equipment.

 

[disc1]

Read the following from University of Florida on copper. They don't exactly agree with Dave's blathering about copper never coming backinto solution inside a reef tank. Their recommended concentration of copper for treating ich is less than what comes out of a lot of peoples tap water. Use of Copper in Marine Aquaculture and Aquarium Systems

Blathering? Did you even read the article? http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa165

The article is about dissolving copper sulfate. I read it, and nowhere in it does it say that copper hydroxide or copper carbonate can be brought into solution at basic pH.

Actually, it says this to the contrary under Basic Copper Chemistry:

Maintaining target concentration levels of copper can be challenging. Keeping copper concentrations high enough is difficult for many reasons. Water has numerous dissolved compounds (for example, bicarbonate ion (HCO3-), which can readily "combine" with copper and remove copper from solution. Carbonates"”which are part of dolomite, crushed coral, oyster shell, and other common marine substrates"”dissolve in the water and complex (or bind) with copper, affecting the level of copper in solution. Copper can also be taken up by living organisms, including bacteria, algae, and brine shrimp, and it can bind to substrates in the system (including activated carbon) (Cardeilhac and Whitaker 1988).

Still other factors can cause the copper concentration to rise too high. Increases in salinity will decrease the binding (adsorption) of copper to surfaces. In salt water at more neutral pH (e.g., pH of around 7), copper is surrounded by chloride molecules. Decreases in pH will release previously bound copper, and increase levels in solution, thereby increasing the risk of toxicity. Also, if some live foods, such as brine shrimp, are present during copper treatments, they may bioaccumulate enough copper to be toxic to fish that eat them (Cardeilhac and Whitaker 1988). (Additional factors are discussed in "Environmental Factors" below.)

That's exactly what I said. Copper can fall out of solution as a carbonate and won't go back into solution under basic conditions.

At pH of 7, the copper is surrounded by chloride. A decrease in pH will bring previously bound copper into solution. Last I checked, and I'm pretty good at this chemistry stuff, a decrease in pH from 7 would be acidic.

And Dave'c comments about the efficiency of DI filters"¦..I'm sorry he doesn't have a clue

There are a couple of universities and some major companies in the world of chromatography that would disagree. But OK. BTW: If you'll check out more than my tank, you'll find out that I am an amateur reefer, but a professional chemist.

As I previously noted I hold 5 process and commercial patents

Really? 5?

for systems that allow for more uniform distribution of fluid through media. Fluid flow through filter medium in a filter cartridge is not laminar and results in a condition known as wicking or short circuiting. Wicking occurs when the fluid flows in the direction of least
resistance which tends to be areas between the inner wall of the tubular housing and the powdered filter medium. Wicking results in the fluid bypassing the majority of the surface area of the granular filter medium.

What kinds of flow rates are you talking about? I still don't think you can afford to ignore diffusion. If it makes a difference at cm/sec linear flow rates through sub-micron HPLC media, then I am certain that it makes a difference in larger media.

I think Dave should check his water supply for high copper...:spin1:

That's rich. I'll get back to you on that one.

 

[disc1]

Think of it this way if it helps. Copper isn't the only thing in the water. Right? The TDS meter can't read the 20ppb of copper, but it can read ppm of total dissolved solids.

Copper has a hydrated radius of 600pm, compared with sodium at 450pm, and potassium at 300pm. The only common monoatomic cation in your water with a larger hydrated radius is magnesium at 800pm. This means that for each of those other cations, the RO membrane will be even less efficient at removing the smaller ones. So if a certain percentage of copper is passing your membrane, then a larger percentage of other cations are crossing as well.

Now onto the media. If any water is short circuiting, or bypassing, or wicking, or whatever, then not only does copper make it through, but all those other ions in that same water. If there is 20ppb of copper in that water, there will be a much larger concentration of other ions.

Furthermore, the water that does contact the media is depleted in copper at a higher rate than the other cations because of copper having a higher affinity for the media. This in turn depletes the water in contact with that water by diffusion, but that concept seems to be lost here.

So, if you add all of that up, you are going to have significantly more sodium and potassium and ammonium and calcium in the final effluent water than you are going to have copper. And all of those cations combined will be huge compared to the amount of copper.

Now think about the TDS meter. You're right, it can't measure 20ppb. But it doesn't measure only copper and copper isn't ever going to be the only thing there. So if you really have 20ppb copper in your DI water, you are going to see some TDS from everything that comes with it.


People ask often if it's OK to use water that is 1 or 2ppm TDS out of their DI. I always tell them the same thing. It depends on what that particular dissolved solids are. If any of it is copper, you'd better not put it in your tank.


Maybe if you had some water that was highly enriched in copper but depleted in all other elements, then you might have a problem. But for the average hobbyist, a well maintained RODI system is your best line of defense on water quality.

 

[jeff@zina.com]

Read the following from University of Florida on copper. They don't exactly agree with Dave's blathering about copper never coming backinto solution inside a reef tank. Their recommended concentration of copper for treating ich is less than what comes out of a lot of peoples tap water. Use of Copper in Marine Aquaculture and Aquarium Systems

Yow. Wrong paper to quote, since it's the industry standard for treatment in the aquaculture industry. It also deals with copper purposely added to the system, not that which might be in the water source, and provides the recommended precautions to deal with it. There's also a major difference between free and chelated coppers to the copper ions in source water.

And Dave'c comments about the efficiency of DI filters…..I'm sorry he doesn't have a clue, and I'm tired of arguing for arguing sake with him. As I previously noted I hold 5 process and commercial patents for systems that allow for more uniform distribution of fluid through media. Fluid flow through filter medium in a filter cartridge is not laminar and results in a condition known as wicking or short circuiting.

You're ignoring the resin. Distribution of fluid in a deionizing media is almost a non-issue since the fluids don't have to actually touch the media. As for your patents, why haven't you designed the proper DI or water treatment device to remove the copper? Or is that the underlying reason for posting?

And just what makes you think we don't right now? I believe...

Crap. Back to religion. Losing discussion again, why can't I keep my trap shut?

Okay, here's what I propose. I have access to a Florida State and EPA approved lab that measures my actual water source and can get them to do some samples for copper at the PPB range. I'll get samples from my RO/DI, output, my incoming source and my reef tank that has not had a water change for six months plus had a die-off in SPS (I've attributed it to a drop in calcium, which I measured and corrected, but I'll throw in the SPS deaths anyway).

My home water system is copper, PVC, CPVC and corroded galvanized steel, built in the early 1950's and updated/modified by any fool with a hammer. I have stray electricity grounded through the piping. I have never used a copper treatment in this system, never tested for copper in it and do not run carbon in this system. I use IO salt and feed with a mix of prepared and home-made foods.

This won't be done over the weekend, but I'll try it and see what I get. It's mostly out of curiosity, I really don't expect anyone to change an opinion based on one silly test. I won't.

Jeff

I can't do this as a scientific study

 

[TheFishMan65]

While I find this an interesting discussion, I think graham had it sort of right

I think Dave should check his water supply

We all should check our water and take the appropriate steps. If you have high copper then maybe you should run cuprisorb. I don't think you can apply the average water to everyone else's water.

We can theorize all sorts of issues that could apply to someone. Do they apply to most, probably not. Bring them up discuss them, but in the end each person must decide what is right for them.

Probably sticking my nose in where it does not belong and now going home to read my annual water report

 

[GrahamJr]

Hey Jeff,

How far is Naples from Miami? Miami area exceeds 1300 ppb on a regular basis. Looks like Florida in general has a lot of hot spot copper issues. Good idea to test your water I would say.

Aquarium Chemistry: Tap Water in Reef Aquaria
By Randy Holmes-Farley, Ph.D.
As will become clear in this article, using tap water is risky business. Short of testing your own water, there is no way to be certain that your water is acceptable.

Toxic Metals In Tap Water: Copper
One of the biggest concerns for aquarists considering the use of tap water is copper. Copper is more toxic to marine invertebrates than it is to humans, so the EPA allows more in tap water than an aquarist would want in an aquarium. Specifically, the EPA hasan action level at 1.3 ppm copper in tap water, and it is only a big problem (to the EPA) if more than 10% of the homes on the water supply exceed that level. For that reason, water supplies typically report the 90% level, meaning that 10% of homes exceed that stated value. Many also report the maximum level in any home tested.

Table 5 shows copper levels for a small selection of homes for all of the cities in this study. The reason that copper must be testedat the home tap is that most of the copper in public water supplies comes from the pipes in the home itself. Further, newer does not necessarily mean better, as fresh copper pipes might be even more inclined to release copper to the water than those that have had decades to build up protective coatings.

How much copper is too much? That is difficult to say, and certainly varies from organism to organism. In a recent test,5 Ron Shimek added copper to natural seawater and looked at the effect on sea urchin larvae. He found that concentrations above 10 ppb decreased the larval survival after 48 h, and that concentrations above 100 ppb killed all of them. Whether that translatesinto particular copper levels to be concerned about in typical reef aquaria is open to discussion. Nevertheless, it points out thatcopper is potentially toxic at levels well below the EPA action level of 1.3 ppm. That hypothesis is well supported by the literature on copper toxicity.6 Canadian Water Quality Guidelines for the Protection of Aquatic Life suggest that copper be kept to less thana few ppb in fresh water, but they do not provide a salt water recommendation.

So how do the water supplies stack up with respect to copper? For some homes, not well. Ten percent of the homes tested inMiami have more than 1100 ppb copper in their water. In Kansas City, Orlando, Phoenix, and certain districts in Houston, ten percent of the homes have more than 500 ppb copper. At least one of my neighbors in Boston has 1100 ppb copper.

What's the best case? That's hard to say for sure, but perhaps Central Arkansas, where ninety percent of homes have copperbelow 50 ppb. Nevertheless, ten percent of homes are above that level, and some may be significantly above that level.

Based on the data, if your home is among the highest in your district, your water likely will be unacceptable. Since mostaquarists do not know the copper levels in their water, it can be a risk to use it. If you do choose to use it, there are some simpleactions that you can take to help:

Test the water for copper with a test kit. Some of the kits available to hobbyists (Seachem and Hach LP Cube, #21938-00), for example) claim to detect copper at fairly low levels (10 ppb for Seachem and 50 ppb for Hach). Whether those limits areattained in practice or not, I do not know. But they likely will easily detect the very high levels in some tap water (500-1000+ ppb copper). Thus they can at least be used to screen out the worst offenders.
Let the water run for 5-10 minutes before collecting it. This will greatly reduce the likelihood of getting a high copper (or lead) level from water that has been sitting in your pipes for an extended period of time.

----------------------------------------------------
The problem with using simple high school chemistry, and ignoring the often far more complex biological chemistry, it becomes difficult to reach factual conclusion about what is taking place inside a reef tank.

If you read and quote Dr. Ron, you should understand it is very easy to understand how copper gets back into a reef tanks water column, after being deposited in the substrate and live rock. Even simple logic says, there is no way our calcium rich sand beds would not slowly dissolve and put calcium back ito the tank, if the pH didn't drop below 7pH during denitrication in anaerobic areas.

Reefing DSB's founding father Dr. Ron Shimeck. 'Dr. Ron' as he is commonly known, has made recent reference to the 'possible' build up of heavy metals in the bed 'and other areas of our aquariums', via precipitation. And that any drastic drop in parameters such as Ph 'might' cause the release of these back into the water column with consequent damaging effects to our livestock. This is, 'I might add' an experiment still in progress which I eagerly await the outcome of, as the results might change the way we all view and approach the long-term husbandry of our charges. As for the conclusions, Dr Ron has already suggested that replacement of the media might be necessary every four to five years in an effort to rid the system of this build up, plus it may be stemmed from happening for longer periods via the use of 'Polyfilters' which are specially designed to deal with this type of impurity, ideally when preparing fresh salt mixes up prior to addition to the system. In this respect there 'might' end up being some argument in keeping DSB's in a detachable sump or one not unlike my design, ( DIY 4) So that when this type of maintenance is carried out, it will not damage the rest of the system with a sudden release of un-treated Amm, NO2, and NO3 that is being worked on in the sand layers at that time. If this truly is the case, then my only suggestion rather than starting from scratch each time, (which none of us can realistically afford), Would be to house the DSB in a separate sump which can be shut off from the rest of the system, and then replace 1/4 of the DSB every year to keep things at acceptable levels. Any pollution that is emitted from the bed will be kept away from the main tank, and can be simply changed by flushing the DSB through with some tank water prior to reattaching to the rest of the system. As for any other chemicals / gases that are part of the breakdown process. then I personally find it hard to believe that they could possibly accumulate to dangerous levels in a well maintained and well fed DSB. the mere fact that all the sand is being moved around so much, actually increases the possibly that any accumulated harmful chemicals are dispersed via diffusion before they get a chance to do any damage, to be removed via other methods such as skimming, Carbon or Polyfilters.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Graham,

I don't think anybody is trying to discredit the harmful effects of copper or the fact that SOME people may have high copper in their source water.

The point remains the same, most established reef aquarists have taken steps to prevent the copper (in the chance that it may exist at significant levels) from their source water from entering there systems. Your answer to that is only pointing out that those systems can fail, or accidents can happen.

For most of us that means that for our reefs to be contaminated by copper, we would have to have high a high copper concentration in our source water AND have a failed reverse osmosis membrane AND have a failed De-ionization media stage AND be too ignorant to notice the effects of the copper or the fact that our water filtration system has failed us.

That means for a small portion of people (MOSTLY ONLY those who neglect their systems), copper import from their source water COULD be a problem. Logic dictates that those who are ignorant of the need for source water filtration AND practice poor system maintenance, have far more problems than copper.

 

[jason2459]

Well, this has been all interesting and fun...

So, I've learned that

- 1 TDS can be very bad
- Learn what's in your water. Call your city water company or get a report
- copper ions from piping is most likely not taken out by carbon stages like copper meds are.
- maintain your RO/DI system
- Always have a DI stage
- if you use refill cartridges make sure to pack it in well to reduce the chance of channeling.
- two DI stages could be beneficial if you are not actively measuring TDS all the time and rely on color changes
- Don't stress the small stuff and enjoy your tank.

 

[disc1]

Well, this has been all interesting and fun...

So, I've learned that

- 1 TDS can be very bad
- Learn what's in your water. Call your city water company or get a report
- copper ions from piping is most likely not taken out by carbon stages like copper meds are.
- maintain your RO/DI system
- Always have a DI stage
- if you use refill cartridges make sure to pack it in well to reduce the chance of channeling.
- two DI stages could be beneficial if you are not actively measuring TDS all the time and rely on color changes
- Don't stress the small stuff and enjoy your tank.

:thumbsup:

 

[GrahamJr]

Well, this has been all interesting and fun...

So, I've learned that

Chong"¦you failed the test

- 1 TDS can be very bad"¦"¦"¦zero TDS can also be very bad
- Learn what's in your water. Call your city water company or get a report"¦Your Ciity Water company has no idea what whats in water your putting into your reef tank"¦.only what is in the water they supply
- copper ions from piping is most likely not taken out by carbon stages like copper meds are"¦.carbon is the recommended for removing carbon meds
- maintain your RO/DI system"¦One right
- Always have a DI stage "¦.. Depends on your water quality
- if you use refill cartridges make sure to pack it in well to reduce the chance of channeling. "¦.packing well make can actually make short circuiting worse
- two DI stages could be beneficial if you are not actively measuring TDS all the time and rely on color changes"¦Two stages in series makes can makeup for some of the bypass issues
- Don't stress the small stuff and enjoy your tank"¦.Don't stress the small stuff and risk losing your tank.

I agree"¦Jeff (Cheech)


What more can be said ? I have reached the pinnacle of communication when Cheech and Chong, master reef keepers, they both are in full agreement to disagree.

I KNOW"¦I KNOW"¦What your tank looks like and your ability to grow coral is not relevent, it is your knowledge of chemistry and your ability to express yourself on the internet that is important. I guess I missed that part growing up, when there was no wrong answer, and grades didn't count. I was never taught that when I went to school.

I'm just kidding here, but come on guys stop this foolishness, I have never seen two reef tanks keepers more in need of help than what I'm looking at below. You can learn a lot if you listen a little more and open your minds, not just about this thread, but to a lot of very smart reef keepers on RC.

CHEECH'S TANK:

CHONG'S TANK:

 

[BeanAnimal]

Graham,

If a majority of mature reef tanks looked like those above, then your alarmist perspective may have some basis...

Happy Reefing

 

[jason2459]

Graham,

If a majority of mature reef tanks looked like those above, then your alarmist perspective may have some basis...

Happy Reefing

The bottom picture is mine and you should see what it did look like. You can see my entire reef keeping history in a thread here on RC. Its my homepage link in my profile. I find it funny that he didn't want to continue the discussion because he felt attacked yet he is out right lashing out and trying to slander someone he doesn't know to try and make a point that he doesn't need to make.

I am rather proud of my tank and have loved watching it over the years. Its been fun to try different things and see what has failed and improve on them. Reefcentral has been a great place for me to find and research information including this thread. Calling me a stoner and showing off my tank as a poor example of a reef keeper will just half to be brushed off as some one on the internet trying to be loud and obnoxious.

Enjoy your tanks. That's why you have them I hope.

 

[wdt2000]

I have a good bit of copper(290 ppb) in my well water from our copper pipes. For the past year I(my wife ) has been adding this to my reef tank with no problems related to copper. I also use this to grow copepods, rotifers, and baby peppermint shrimp with no noticeable effects.

Not saying I recommend anyone else even trying this, just sharing my experience.

 

[BeanAnimal]

The bottom picture is mine and you should see what it did look like. You can see my entire reef keeping history in a thread here on RC. Its my homepage link in my profile. I find it funny that he didn't want to continue the discussion because he felt attacked yet he is out right lashing out and trying to slander someone he doesn't know to try and make a point that he doesn't need to make.

I am rather proud of my tank and have loved watching it over the years. Its been fun to try different things and see what has failed and improve on them. Reefcentral has been a great place for me to find and research information including this thread. Calling me a stoner and showing off my tank as a poor example of a reef keeper will just half to be brushed off as some one on the internet trying to be loud and obnoxious.

Enjoy your tanks. That's why you have them I hope.

Jason,

In will will be more than happy to take a look at your thread. Thanks for putting some context to the remarks.

 

[GrahamJr]

The bottom picture is mine and you should see what it did look like. ………………………….. Calling me a stoner and showing off my tank as a poor example of a reef keeper will just half to be brushed off as some one on the internet trying to be loud and obnoxious.
……...

Sorry Jason,

I was trying to make a humorous point to drive home a very real issue that some continue to make light of using high school chemistry, false premises, bad math, false statements, and totally ignore the biological chemistry in a reef tank. I've quoted articles from some of the best thinkers on this topic who state basically the same thing….less a few key points I am trying to explain that are significant issues.

For someone to continually contradict, sidetrack the facts, and say copper is not a real potential issue to reef keepers; except in very rare cases, and to then say all you need is install an RO/DI system, and you problem is solved is just plain wrong. It is not doing reef keepers any favor if they buy into it.

The distrubing thing, based on some of the responses, some readers are buying into the simple high school chemistry, false premises, bad math, false statements, and are totally ignoring the biological chemistry in a reef tank.

Let's see if we can all agree on a few things.

!. As Dr. Ron and Randy Homes have both said copper in a reef tank is poison. Just how much poison your tank can take is not a fixed number, but you would better better off with very little. Dr. Ron has shown as little as 10ppb negative effect some forms of life in a reef tank, and 100ppb kills some forms of life.

2. Based upon the above, we would all better off filtering our water with RO/DI.

3. In many parts of the country, and for millions, they cannot even have a reef tank without using RO/DI. Especially those areas and reef keepers that have over 1,000 ppm copper in their water.

4. Our cheap little RO/DI systems are not a 100% efficient or foolproof, no mater what we would like to believe. RO/DI doe not guarantee stopping all copper intrusion. No matter what some people want you to believe, and it isn't just because a reef keeper is lazy. RO membranes vary from 80% to 99% efficient, membranes can easily be damaged from chlorine and cloramines in operation, seams fail, DI systems are not 100% efficient as I have tried to explain, predicting exactly when media is spent or is allowing copper by pass is not easy to measure, people are not 100% efficient in doing maintenance. To top it off, we may have some guys whos's tap water is almost green because his home copper piping has become part battery and is hooked up to stray electical currents from his home electical system.

5. Our reef salt has an average of about 30ppb of copper, but when we remove a certain percentage of water and replace with the same concentration of freshly made up salt water, it is basically a sum zero process. copper should not increase above 30ppb.

6. The 30 ppb in the water could may actually decrease as the copper becomes a part of our live rock, substrate, and reef life.

7. If nothing else took place, over time this could cause a very gradual rise in the stored copper in our systems. This could take years.

8. The most significant rise in copper concentration will come from tank cooling/evaporation. As I showed earlier, I virtually am replaceing 100% of my water with make up every 25 days. This is the most significant area of concern. The copper does not evaporate. Most of it will be deposited in the substrate and live rock. How much is too much depends on many variables.

If I am adding make up water that has 290ppb; as wdt2000 states they are doing, after 25 days in my system I would not now have 580 ppb copper, and then 870, and so on, and so on. Oviously all of this is not all staying in the water column, but it is building up in the tanks total copper content.

As Dr. Ron points our in his studies at some point a reef tanks heavy metals will cause a crash and the tank flips. It could happen the first week, if that guy in Miami fills his new system with the 1300ppm water, or it could months or it could even take years.

It could happen fast by simply not maintaining the proper alkalinity and pH. It could happen from pockets of acidic anaerobic denitifcation or hydrogen sulphide build up. All of a sudden we have a surge of more copper back in solution than the tank life can tolerate. Things start to die and tank acidity get worse and more thing start to die.etc, etc, etc.

It could happen slowly. Your observant and see something is wrong in the tank. The coral doesn't look good. You do a timely large water change and bring things back to to balance…for awhile. You could go on this way for years, never being real successful with growing the more difficult coral, but a few of the softies have higher tolerance. Your tank and the coral simply seems to exist. At some point you don't move fast enough or do enough to correct the increasing copper concentration in the water column…and the tank flips.

You replace everything and chalk it up to a bad experience. Don't believe that can happen and is not happening right now to many many reef keepers on RC…sorry. I tried. I really did.

 

[jimmy frag]

hi Graham jr. i have been following your battle and have to say that i do agree with you 100%. nothing if full proof. what works on paper or in a lab is in a controlled inviroment. reel life in a closed system has many variables. unless you are exporting 100% of contaminates it will build up over time. bottom line. the only question im left with is how much copper is really entering our reef tanks. is the damage done before we can detect it. thanx for the thread, i have enjoyed it. the amount of money and time that we put into our tanks will vary between set ups and value each individual places on them, for me a few more dollars spent on something as simple as copper removal media in the sump is well worth it. Jimmy