Coral Smuggling

Smuggling is to take high risk for big money in my opinion, a few frags to a friend in Mexico 4 years ago is maybe a poor decision, but does not make Jorge a bad person.

There are many who travel between the US and Mexico for family and they may buy a new phone here in the states for a friend who wants to save a few dollars on duty. Or when I am in Baja a friend may ask to pick up some medicine you can't buy over the counter in the US. Is this smuggling, Maybe, but in my opinion the DA is wasting our money going after a hard working citizen who made a small mistake.

I also read up a little on Cites and they claim all coral is endangered and it does drop down a category when aquacultured. There are laws that say we can't trade endangered species across state lines. Does this mean when I brought coral back from Macna in a thermos I was smuggling?

Sounds like frag star milionares could be in for a wake up call if they start going after hobbyists? Reefers Cove is a Hobbyist who grows coral in his garage and not much different from any of us who have sold our growth online.

I do agree that Cites should protect our ocean treasures, but I also think that we the hobbyist have a place in keeping these treasures for the future do to coral bleaching in the wild.

If a friend in Mexico would have asked me for a frag pack on my next trip to Baja I would not have thought twice about bringing it down until now.
 
pciscott said:
Smuggling is to take high risk for big money in my opinion, a few frags to a friend in Mexico 4 years ago is maybe a poor decision, but does not make Jorge a bad person.

There are many who travel between the US and Mexico for family and they may buy a new phone here in the states for a friend who wants to save a few dollars on duty. Or when I am in Baja a friend may ask to pick up some medicine you can't buy over the counter in the US. Is this smuggling, Maybe, but in my opinion the DA is wasting our money going after a hard working citizen who made a small mistake.

I also read up a little on Cites and they claim all coral is endangered and it does drop down a category when aquacultured. There are laws that say we can't trade endangered species across state lines. Does this mean when I brought coral back from Macna in a thermos I was smuggling?

Sounds like frag star milionares could be in for a wake up call if they start going after hobbyists? Reefers Cove is a Hobbyist who grows coral in his garage and not much different from any of us who have sold our growth online.

I do agree that Cites should protect our ocean treasures, but I also think that we the hobbyist have a place in keeping these treasures for the future do to coral bleaching in the wild.

If a friend in Mexico would have asked me for a frag pack on my next trip to Baja I would not have thought twice about bringing it down until now.
Click to expand...


I agree with what you're saying but the law is the law. Look at all the other reptiles and fish that cites applies to and even though you think that we can save the corals through coral propagation, it's still a no no. Some animals off the top of my head that have funky laws that cites applies to are spotted turtles (in order to get them in ca they need to already be here or though permits I believe), snapping turtles, Fly River turtles, any colored arowana (even though they farm raise them like crazy now), Chinese big head turtles, etc etc. different level of cites dictates what can be done with the animals but man they are strict.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Ok the law is the law, then what is the law that pertains to coral trading as hobbyist? You are pretty specific on certain species, but is all coral lumped together as one species, and how do I know if something I have is illegal?

Not spelled out very clearly?

Confusing? Or should I say confused???
 
pciscott said:
Ok the law is the law, then what is the law that pertains to coral trading as hobbyist? You are pretty specific on certain species, but is all coral lumped together as one species, and how do I know if something I have is illegal?

Not spelled out very clearly?

Confusing? Or should I say confused???
Click to expand...

Well I think the general assumption Scott is that once a coral reaches the US, it has generally satisfied all the permit and Cites requirements, thus making it legal for us to aquaculture/sell them within our country.
 
I think this is all pre RAP hype for the Reefers Cove booth. lol..

In all seriousness though, I really hope the people arrested from this incident is not the Jorge from Reefers Cove.
 
pciscott said:
Smuggling is to take high risk for big money in my opinion, a few frags to a friend in Mexico 4 years ago is maybe a poor decision, but does not make Jorge a bad person.

.......
Click to expand...


Classic smuggling.

According to the complaint he went to some lenght to hide them. That speaks greatly to intent.

cut and paste from the fillings.

19. On or about August 28, 2013, I talked to SA Newcomer about his seizure of live corals and invertebrates. At that time SA Newcomer showed me the Pringles cans that were seized from VAZQUEZ. I examined the cans and saw that all but one had the interior foil "freshness seal" intact and attached to the can. Consequently, when the foil seal was laid flat over the can opening and the lid was placed on top, each can appeared to be a sealed, unopened" can of Pringles.

20. I have reviewed photographs provided to me by CBP and FWS that depict the Pringles cans, the wildlife hidden within the Pringles cans, Gordillo's luggage, and the contents of the luggage. Based on my review of the photographs and other documents and reports related to the seizure on August 28, 2013, I learned the following:

a. In at least one of the Pringles cans, the plastic bags containing the corals were hidden underneath potato chips.
b. Gordillo's luggage appeared to be packed with foil-lined Styrofoam on the sides and top of the bag.
c. In addition to the Pringles cans, Gordillo's luggage also contained cardboard boxes and a bag with the marldngs "shipping supplies," "para Jorge," and "Entregar en Mexico," the latter two phrases I understand to mean "for Jorge" and "deliver in Mexico." The bag contained additional plastic bags and rubber bands.​
 
solitude127 said:
..... Reefers Cove.
Click to expand...


Here is a cut and paste from the Criminal Complaint Filed in this case.

According to SA Newcomer's report, VAZQUEZ indicated the following,
among other things, during the interview:
a. VAZQUEZ stated that approximately nine years earlier he started keeping
live coral as a hobby and that approximately two years earlier he started a small coral business in
his garage that he was trying to build into his sole source of income. VAZQUEZ explained that
he typically buys live corals from wholesalers in the Los Angeles area and then "frags" the corals
he purchases and resells the smaller pieces. VAZQUEZ said that he generally sells corals at
coral, fish, and aquarium shows in the Los Angeles area, and that he also has a website
(www.reeferscove.com).
Click to expand...
 
WayneL333 said:
Well I think the general assumption Scott is that once a coral reaches the US, it has generally satisfied all the permit and Cites requirements, thus making it legal for us to aquaculture/sell them within our country.
Click to expand...

Even if something has reached the US it still does not mean it is legal to sell still. In the case of it being legal, it may have been under a special permitted condition and then that doesn't itself say you can start selling to anyone based on what CITES protection is in place.

The protected corals fall under (black) Antipatharia, (blue) Helioporidae, (red and pink) Coralliidae, (organ pipe) Tubiporidae, (fire) Milleporidaem, (lace) Stylasteridae, and (stony) Scleractinia with different CITES protection (with just a quick google search).
 
enjetek said:
Even if something has reached the US it still does not mean it is legal to sell still. In the case of it being legal, it may have been under a special permitted condition and then that doesn't itself say you can start selling to anyone based on what CITES protection is in place.

The protected corals fall under (black) Antipatharia, (blue) Helioporidae, (red and pink) Coralliidae, (organ pipe) Tubiporidae, (fire) Milleporidaem, (lace) Stylasteridae, and (stony) Scleractinia with different CITES protection (with just a quick google search).
Click to expand...

??? I really don't understand what you're trying to say in your first paragraph.

I never said every coral here in the US was legally imported. I'm sure some were brought in wet pockets or Pringle cans in this case. But if you're buying corals from legit stores and vendors, it's safe to assume they've been imported legally.
 
WayneL333 said:
??? I really don't understand what you're trying to say in your first paragraph.

I never said every coral here in the US was legally imported. I'm sure some were brought in wet pockets or Pringle cans in this case. But if you're buying corals from legit stores and vendors, it's safe to assume they've been imported legally.
Click to expand...

I was responding to what you first said because you didn't explicitly state all things were legal in stores - there are definitely funny things that can be found in stores sometimes. But yes, if the animals/plants were legally imported, as in not CITES protected since most people don't buy those animals in stores, then those animals/plants can be sold. But again, and let's use venomous snakes or snapping turtles because they can be found in legit stores and vendors as examples, it doesn't mean you can just sell them to anyone since they are legal in only some states (which in this case is exporting). This example, as well as what I saw written about the specific incident, is the destination of the animals. In order for the corals to be legally sent there needed to be permits on the other end which I don't think there were.
 
That is an incorrect assumption. We believe (and there is a lot of observations to back this up) that smuggling of corals has intensified greatly as the price 'rare' corals has increased. Look at the Ricordea crazy 5-10 years ago. Most of those corals were illegally harvested in Florida, laundered by an importer as Haiti stock.

Acans were commonly imported as look a like species (i.e. Favia) because the CITES quota for Acan was small and demand spiked. Those corals were imported illegally (smuggled) but were not discovered. Then once in the US, they are fragged. F2 generation are not illegal to sell. But they were obtained illegally.

Rhizotrochus as commonly smuggled in and show up on Facebook and other forums for sale. Those are not legal.

This sort of story goes on and on.
 
arhyne said:
That is an incorrect assumption. We believe (and there is a lot of observations to back this up) that smuggling of corals has intensified greatly as the price 'rare' corals has increased. Look at the Ricordea crazy 5-10 years ago. Most of those corals were illegally harvested in Florida, laundered by an importer as Haiti stock.

Acans were commonly imported as look a like species (i.e. Favia) because the CITES quota for Acan was small and demand spiked. Those corals were imported illegally (smuggled) but were not discovered. Then once in the US, they are fragged. F2 generation are not illegal to sell. But they were obtained illegally.

Rhizotrochus as commonly smuggled in and show up on Facebook and other forums for sale. Those are not legal.

This sort of story goes on and on.
Click to expand...

+1 and in other cases even captive bred animals/plants are still illegal to possess even if they were born here but smuggled in.
 
I received a private message asking who I was.

You can see about my work here.
https://www.aquariumtradedata.org/

http://masna.org/masna-programs/aquarist-of-the-year/

My interest in your club forum was generated by a search result that returned on the topic of coral smuggling.

I do realize that some folks think the reason you would post information about other members might be to discredit someone or harm a product or business. But I can assure you that my interest here is in answering questions and providing factual information.
 
arhyne said:
My interest in your club forum was generated by a search result that returned on the topic of coral smuggling.
Click to expand...
Andrew,
This is not a club forum. This is a SoCal area forum and Socal is a big area.
 
Last edited:
For those of you unfamiliar with Dr. Rhyne's work, not only can you use the links provided above, you can also look to the MASNA web site.

Dr. Andrew Rhyne was honored with the MASNA Award for 2017 at MACNA in New Orleans for his work and research. He joins many past award winners including Joe Yaiullo, Richard Ross, Sanjay Joshi, Kevin Kohen, Julian Sprung and Martin Moe, among others.

You can read more about Andy on the MASNA website: http://masna.org/masna-programs/aquarist-of-the-year/

Legal coral trade and our hobby is negatively effected by coral smuggling. The laws related to possession of both live and dead coral can be complicated, but assuming that it's legal simply because it's here is inaccurate. And while it unlikely that an individual hobbyist would be prosecuted under US F&W rules and regulations or the Lacey Act are small, we should strive to support companies that follow the law.

There are many external pressures on our hobby with the goal of ending the ability for us to keep corals and fish in captive environments. Supporting legal, sustainable collection is something we should all agree on. Unfortunately it's difficult for the individual hobbyist to truly know where many of these items come from. We depend on our retailers, who depend on their wholesalers, who depend on their suppliers to ensure that our animals are legally collected and imported.

If you want to be more involved with protecting our hobby, check out PIJAC's Aquatic issues page. There are many working against our hobby and few working with us. We don't need folks in our own community giving ammunition to those looking to shut down the trade.
 
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