Coral Tank from Canada (1350gal Display Tank)

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Hal said:
Peter,

There's a third general approach to measuring water quality that can be used alone or in conjunction with the the two that you mention: observe the inhabitants of your tank. With experience you'll calibrate your eye to recognize what is "normal" and when things don't look quite right. For example, the xenia has stopped pulsing, or the polyps on your gorgonian aren't extending quite as far. In most instances this behaviour will correlate to some aspect of your tank's environment (basic water quality, shifted par from aging lights, changes in waterflow, external contaminants, etc.) Often the best thing that you can do for your tank is to sit and observe it for 20 minutes. After all, that is what you bought the tank for anyway. :)

On a somewhat related matter, I haven't seen it said here, so I'll say it: don't add any supplements that you don't test for.
Click to expand...

HAL, I'm hoping that I get far enough through this process to claim enough experience to do just that. If I get there relatively unscathed it will be in no small part due to the support this community has provided me.

I will take note of your advice for sure. No test, no supplement.

Peter
 
Chago09 said:
Mr. Wilson.... just write a book already. Or someone take all his posts and stash them in a section called, NEWBIES READ BEFORE POSTING QUESTIONS!!!
Click to expand...

I've actually thought about writing a book since many of the ones out there are either dated, too technical, or too basic. Many aquarium books do a great job of listing the pros and cons of different technologies and methodologies, but fail to provide the modifications and tricks of the trade that people search out on forums. Forums are great but it's so hard to sift through the shear volume.

One day when I find the time it would be nice to do some practical experiments to answer some of the questions that we all have. I would be more than happy to share what I learn with the group. I like having a printed book to refer to and hold in my hand, but it looks like things are evolving to ebooks now.
 
The important thing to keep in mind with regard to replenishing depleted elements is water changes only address the volume you are discarding. In other words, if you have a 100 gallon tank and do a 20% water change, the 20 gallons you replace will have the correct NSW (natural salt water) levels, assuming your salt is worth its... how does the saying go?... salt :) The other 80% (80 gallons) will remain at the depleted level. Of course once it mixes, you get an average that is lower than NSW with respect to the "good stuff" that corals need, and higher in "bad stuff" that accumulates and becomes toxic to corals.

Another common misconception is that elements are depleted only through coral growth. Reef building corals, particularly fast growing SPS, do in fact consume a fair amount of calcium, carbonates (KH), and magnesium etc., but you also lose a great deal of these through the growth of coraline algae, hard tube worms, and down the drain with what your skimmer collects. These two studies show that there is a substantial amount of calcium removed through protein skimming. In some cases the calcium is in the "raw form" from a calcium reactor (not yet fully dissolved into the water). In other cases the calcium is bound to particles (POC/particulate organic carbon), and in other instances the calcium is sources from the outer shell of plankton that the skimmer has trapped. See table two here http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-12/rs/feature/index.php and this article here http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/2/aafeature

The interaction of chemicals in the water causes some additives to fall out of solution and bind with other chemicals you are adding or are already present in the water. For example, when you add a calcium supplement such as calcium hydroxide or calcium chloride, the calcium ion may partner up with phosphate to form calcium phosphate precipitate. While you lose a small amount of calcium through this interaction, on the plus side you rid yourself of some phosphate that would otherwise feed nuisance algae.

As in the ocean, the calcium-based (calcareous) rock and substrate in your tank will slowly dissolve and add the essential elements your corals need for growth, completing the cycle. The nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria in your rock and substrate release a localized acidity which dissolves some calcareous media. While this is only a small portion of what your tank consumes, it's a natural supply of recycled elements. If you were to grind up and analyze the composition of dead coral, sand, and reef rock, you would find the exact elements that corals require in the proper proportions. Like us, corals are what they eat :) A calcium reactor does this exact process in an isolated container where the tank PH will not be affected (lowered). Calcium reactors use acid (carbonic acid/Co2) to dissolve calcareous gravel by lowering the PH (acidic environment). If you can iron out the kinks with cheaper calcium reactors to assure a steady drip of Co2 and processed water, they are pretty much "set it and forget it" as Ron "Ronco" Popeil would say. Your reactor looks pretty reliable Peter. Is it a Schuran? The key to successful calcium reactor operation is a reliable feed pump, proper use and maintenance of the Co2 regulator, and clearing clogs in the media as needed. Some people add 15% dolomite (calcium magnesium chloride) gravel to their calcium reactor to better supplement magnesium and help calcium go into solution better.

In my experience, you will not experience RTN (rapid tissue necrosis) with a low level of calcium while keeping LPS and soft corals, just slower growth rates. In the case of SPS, you will get bleaching (faded colours due to a loss of symbiotic algae) which may lead to STN (slow tissue necrosis). This article touches on the vibrio bacteria that causes RTN & STN. http://www.coralrx.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16&Itemid=18

Calcium is a building block for us and our invertebrate friends. Our bones will get weak and corals will be stressed if we don't get enough calcium, but it isn't a rapid decline as some may indicate. I asked Bob Fenner from http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ about the perils of a low calcium level and he concurred that it is merely a stress factor, not a direct cause of mortality.
 
nineball said:
No Jerry, in fact if you did all that you'd have to look at the tank from outside, not be allowed in the elevator accompanied and probably be picked up in a '59 Volkswagon running on reserve!!!!

Thanks for the link, between you and Mr. Wilson I'm getting very little sleep these days.

Peter
Click to expand...

:lolspin: this thread just keeps getting better and better

Rob
 
mr.wilson said:
The important thing to keep in mind with regard to replenishing depleted elements is water changes only address the volume you are discarding. In other words, if you have a 100 gallon tank and do a 20% water change, the 20 gallons you replace will have the correct NSW (natural salt water) levels, assuming your salt is worth its... how does the saying go?... salt :) The other 80% (80 gallons) will remain at the depleted level. Of course once it mixes, you get an average that is lower than NSW with respect to the "good stuff" that corals need, and higher in "bad stuff" that accumulates and becomes toxic to corals.

Another common misconception is that elements are depleted only through coral growth. Reef building corals, particularly fast growing SPS, do in fact consume a fair amount of calcium, carbonates (KH), and magnesium etc., but you also lose a great deal of these through the growth of coraline algae, hard tube worms, and down the drain with what your skimmer collects. These two studies show that there is a substantial amount of calcium removed through protein skimming. In some cases the calcium is in the "raw form" from a calcium reactor (not yet fully dissolved into the water). In other cases the calcium is bound to particles (POC/particulate organic carbon), and in other instances the calcium is sources from the outer shell of plankton that the skimmer has trapped. See table two here http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-12/rs/feature/index.php and this article here http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/2/aafeature

The interaction of chemicals in the water causes some additives to fall out of solution and bind with other chemicals you are adding or are already present in the water. For example, when you add a calcium supplement such as calcium hydroxide or calcium chloride, the calcium ion may partner up with phosphate to form calcium phosphate precipitate. While you lose a small amount of calcium through this interaction, on the plus side you rid yourself of some phosphate that would otherwise feed nuisance algae.

As in the ocean, the calcium-based (calcareous) rock and substrate in your tank will slowly dissolve and add the essential elements your corals need for growth, completing the cycle. The nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria in your rock and substrate release a localized acidity which dissolves some calcareous media. While this is only a small portion of what your tank consumes, it's a natural supply of recycled elements. If you were to grind up and analyze the composition of dead coral, sand, and reef rock, you would find the exact elements that corals require in the proper proportions. Like us, corals are what they eat :) A calcium reactor does this exact process in an isolated container where the tank PH will not be affected (lowered). Calcium reactors use acid (carbonic acid/Co2) to dissolve calcareous gravel by lowering the PH (acidic environment). If you can iron out the kinks with cheaper calcium reactors to assure a steady drip of Co2 and processed water, they are pretty much "set it and forget it" as Ron "Ronco" Popeil would say. Your reactor looks pretty reliable Peter. Is it a Schuran? The key to successful calcium reactor operation is a reliable feed pump, proper use and maintenance of the Co2 regulator, and clearing clogs in the media as needed. Some people add 15% dolomite (calcium magnesium chloride) gravel to their calcium reactor to better supplement magnesium and help calcium go into solution better.

In my experience, you will not experience RTN (rapid tissue necrosis) with a low level of calcium while keeping LPS and soft corals, just slower growth rates. In the case of SPS, you will get bleaching (faded colours due to a loss of symbiotic algae) which may lead to STN (slow tissue necrosis). This article touches on the vibrio bacteria that causes RTN & STN. http://www.coralrx.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16&Itemid=18

Calcium is a building block for us and our invertebrate friends. Our bones will get weak and corals will be stressed if we don't get enough calcium, but it isn't a rapid decline as some may indicate. I asked Bob Fenner from http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ about the perils of a low calcium level and he concurred that it is merely a stress factor, not a direct cause of mortality.
Click to expand...

The scariest part of this post Sean is that I think I actually understood most of it. Thank you again. Amost as scary is that you seem to know my equipment better than I do. Yes my reactor is a Schuran.

Now I have some reading to do.........no sleep again tonight.

Peter
 
"will have the correct NSW" Of which sea? In the wild there is there is no thing as nsw. Every one konws temp changes, but so does every thing else. Eg The red sea and the med has an high S.g. Then some coral reef are near coasts, look at mangroves, can be more brackish.
 
K.Sweeney said:
"will have the correct NSW" Of which sea? In the wild there is there is no thing as nsw. Every one konws temp changes, but so does every thing else. Eg The red sea and the med has an high S.g. Then some coral reef are near coasts, look at mangroves, can be more brackish.
Click to expand...
Values for any given sea or ocean have also changed over time; pH has been sliding down for 250 years, for instance.
 
K.Sweeney said:
"will have the correct NSW" Of which sea? In the wild there is there is no thing as nsw. Every one konws temp changes, but so does every thing else. Eg The red sea and the med has an high S.g. Then some coral reef are near coasts, look at mangroves, can be more brackish.
Click to expand...

I think the coral sea off Australia will be my bench mark but not necessarily where the oil tanker hit the reef. :mad:

Peter
 
nineball said:
The scariest part of this post Sean is that I think I actually understood most of it. Thank you again. Amost as scary is that you seem to know my equipment better than I do. Yes my reactor is a Schuran.

Now I have some reading to do.........no sleep again tonight.

Peter
Click to expand...

you're getting sharper. I've been keeping marine fish for 31 years and I still don't sleep at night :)
 
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