Coral Tank from Canada (1350gal Display Tank)

[mr.wilson]

I dont know which i have enjoyed the most, watching the tank "come alive" or following the excellent discussions found in the thread. I must admit that as a result of the excellent documentation found within these pages i am a little sad that the tank is up and running. I almost would like you to start again so we could enjoy more lengthy disscussions on the "best practices" of filtration, RO water etc etc.
Whilst I have very much enjoyed reading these discussions, and i now miss them somewhat, i do look forward to what is around the corner as we all follow this tank avidly.

I have a couple of questions if you wouldnt mind.
I have read that some species of fish should be quarenteened for longer than others, infections that they may carry could lay dorment in some species for long periods. Is this something you are familiar with Mr Wilson? Do you consider it? Tbh I am bouyed by your 3 week policy. I have read elsewhere that 3 months is reasonable. I consider myself a patient man but 3 months is a looong time.
Also I am pressuming that you add or have added fish to the QT tanks in bulk, ie you know what you want and order in one fell swoop, QT en mass and then add to the display after 3 weeks at which time you then consider the next batch of lucky tank mates. Has there ever been any cross over?....how was that handled?

Peter I have been a fan of this thread since the first sighting of the crane. I think we have all been humbled by your openess, your elegance and your ability to bring together what has to be one of the most inspiring threads the world over. I can only assume that in person you are a remarkable man and one that leaves a lasting impression on those around you.

The slow creep of bureaucracy that goes along with public aquarium projects conditions curators to have patience to wait three months to add new livestock, but these are multi-million dollar installations that have been up an running for years, rather than months. Even public aquariums do not have the space and resources to hold all livestock for three months when first stocking the tank. A year or two down the road it becomes a possibility, but still dubious in value.

Most parasites have a 10-14 day life cycle. Adding an extra week of QT and subsequent prophylactic medication assures that there is a very low chance of transmission to the display tank. We are actually more likely to spread disease via careless feeding and cleaning practices (cross contamination from hoses, nets, towels etc.). Parasites can go dormant or find a secondary host such as coral. This brings us to our more likely security breach, pathogens on new coral additions. We can't medicate new corals and bacteria can linger in them for months without a primary fish host. We don't use fresh foods, just frozen or cooked, so disease transmission is limited in that respect. I'm comfortable with three weeks QT and if there are any health issues we extend the QT.

The best way to approach livestock addition is to assume the worst and hope for the best. Buy the healthiest looking fish and corals from a reputable dealer, then treat them as if you acquired them from the least reputable. I don't see a gain in waiting three months, especially if the new arrivals will be overcrowded and in less than optimum conditions. Adding fish to an established reef tank without the three week QT is a death wish. The poor survival rate most hobbyists encounter is from a lack of patience and dedication to adequately screen and QT livestock. A little extra effort goes a long way, and by the same token, too much is too much. Over medicating can deplete the fishes immune system, overcrowding encourages fish to fish disease transmission, poor water quality and diet causes stress, which leads to sick fish. On one hand, it is easy to target feed fish in small holding tanks with little or no hiding spots, but on the other hand, fish in small tanks tend to be shy and skittish. Some fish such as anthias need a large swimming area and to be kept in groups in order to feed properly. Other fish like angels and tangs need to graze on algae constantly. Once we move the fish to the main display it is as if they have been returned to the sea.

One approach to adding livestock is to add them in large numbers so territorial battles and singling out of the new "fish" is minimized. I prefer this method because it limits the number of times disease can enter the tank. If you slowly add one fish at a time over a much longer period, you continue to toss the dice and expose your livestock to new pathogens. like anything in this hobby, it's about striking a balance and maintaining it.

 

[Elliott]

We hold all fish in QT Mars system for 3 weeks minimum. We have one system for copper tolerant and another for copper sensitive fish like wrasse gobies, wrasse, blennies and some laterally compressed (flat) fish. We use copper, praziquantel, and neomycin in one system. The other system has metronidazole, praziquantel, neomycin, and quinine as needed. I also use malachite green in baths when the need arises. Fresh water dips from time to time as well.

We keep the copper system salinity at 1.014, and slowly raise it over three weeks. The other system is kept at 1.024 and raised to 1.026 to match the display in the last week of QT.

The new HT was added to hold larger fish. We will be adding some moorish idols soon so we need a place to put them. The Mars system is too small for some corals as well, so it's good to have the space when you need it. Six months from now, the 130 gallon HT will likely be a predator tank with azoox (non-photosynthetic) corals.

so you are not just observing but actually treating all new livestock?

 

[mr.wilson]

so you are not just observing but actually treating all new livestock?

You have to be proactive. All newly collected and shipped fish have pathogens that need to be controlled or eradicated with medications. Prayer and faith may work for some, but that has not been my experience.

 

[pscott99]

The enjoyment lies in the ability to live with a small handful of potential pests like aiptasia and bubble algae. As long as they are kept in check, they are beneficial organisms..

How refreshing, a true living reef. I like my one aiptasia ( so far )

We pull out a few bubble algae here and there as we see fit, but there isn't much of it.

When you say pull out can you elaborate. I have read that you shouldn't burst the bubbles. I have one batch that needs to go. Can I just suction it out with a baster ?

 

[mr.wilson]

I have read that you shouldn't burst the bubbles. I have one batch that needs to go. Can I just suction it out with a baster ?

You can wiggle them loose without popping them, but I think the reports that you should leave them alone or they will multiply are exaggerated. The same people will tell you to use emerald crabs or naso tangs to eradicate them. Crabs and tangs will certainly pop them.

Aiptasia can grow back from a small piece of basal tissue, but that doesn't mean killing them back encourages growth. Like a spiders web, if you keep destroying it, it's energy will be expended and it will not proliferate. That's what keeps organisms from becoming pests/parasites in nature, constant predation.

 

[Elliott]

You have to be proactive. All newly collected and shipped fish have pathogens that need to be controlled or eradicated with medications. Prayer and faith may work for some, but that has not been my experience.

oh I agree, just wanted to understand your protocol, I will be treating livestock before transferring to new tank

thanks

 

[mr.wilson]

oh I agree, just wanted to understand your protocol, I will be treating livestock before transferring to new tank

thanks

The treating regimen depends on the fish and overall health. I don't overdue it, as much as it may sound that way with the med list. I use antibiotics toward the end of the treatment to address secondary bacterial infections of fish parasite damage. It also helps with the depleted immune system that can occur with copper treatments. I find a lot of people are afraid of using copper, but used carefully it is a necessary poison. I know I'm preaching to the choir, but the "wait and see" method always has a poor outcome.

When I can, I use strong concentrations of antibiotics and certain chemicals like malachite green or formalin. Netting fish is stressful and damages slime coat fins and scales, so I dose the meds for the whole 125 gallon system into a few tanks where infected target fish are. Sometimes I shut down flow for 20 minutes to get good penetration and concentration, then open it up to dilute and improve water quality for the targeted fish.

The new HT has no substrate, which makes it easier to wipe the bottom of parasites and there is no copper absorbing aragonite or coral rock in the tank. I have one piece in their now to help the tank cycle, but it will be removed soon. We didn't use a UV sterilizer, ozone or a protein skimmer on the HT tank because they all reduce medications. We will throw a bag of carbon in the sump and do a big water change to remove residual meds. Oxidizers like potassium permanganate or sodium hypochlorite (dechlorinator). Keep in mind dechlorinator makes certain types of copper go back into solution when mixed with cupramine due to the amines.

 

[Robb in Austin]

I'm a bit curious about the size of the HT, specifically the height.

I would think you'd want longer vs taller. Not counting space requirements that is.

 

[mr.wilson]

I'm a bit curious about the size of the HT, specifically the height.

I would think you'd want longer vs taller. Not counting space requirements that is.

A series of small boxes like our Mars system is ideal. Fish are comfortable in their hiding places, water changes and meds are more efficient, fish to fish disease transmission is limited, and you can shut down tanks to medicate or clean/sterilize.

The new HT tank does not replace our two Mars systems. We got it for utilitarian purposes and picked the size based on the space we had available and ended up with a deal on an in-stock tank from Midwest Custom Aquarium. Gas exchange is better with a short tank with more surface area. The long term use for this tank is likely to be a non-photosynthetic (azoox) coral tank.

 

[Elliott]

The treating regimen depends on the fish and overall health. I don't overdue it, as much as it may sound that way with the med list. I use antibiotics toward the end of the treatment to address secondary bacterial infections of fish parasite damage. It also helps with the depleted immune system that can occur with copper treatments. I find a lot of people are afraid of using copper, but used carefully it is a necessary poison. I know I'm preaching to the choir, but the "wait and see" method always has a poor outcome.

When I can, I use strong concentrations of antibiotics and certain chemicals like malachite green or formalin. Netting fish is stressful and damages slime coat fins and scales, so I dose the meds for the whole 125 gallon system into a few tanks where infected target fish are. Sometimes I shut down flow for 20 minutes to get good penetration and concentration, then open it up to dilute and improve water quality for the targeted fish.

The new HT has no substrate, which makes it easier to wipe the bottom of parasites and there is no copper absorbing aragonite or coral rock in the tank. I have one piece in their now to help the tank cycle, but it will be removed soon. We didn't use a UV sterilizer, ozone or a protein skimmer on the HT tank because they all reduce medications. We will throw a bag of carbon in the sump and do a big water change to remove residual meds. Oxidizers like potassium permanganate or sodium hypochlorite (dechlorinator). Keep in mind dechlorinator makes certain types of copper go back into solution when mixed with cupramine due to the amines.

without a skimmer on the HT are you exporting nutrients using only water changes? if so, is it fresh seawater or DT water, what percent and how often?

 

[mr.wilson]

without a skimmer on the HT are you exporting nutrients using only water changes? if so, is it fresh seawater or DT water, what percent and how often?

Nitrate and phosphate is not an area of focus for fish only tanks. You will get a little more algae, but our HT has a short photoperiod (shorter parasite life cycle) and relatively low lighting. Fish can easily tolerate 200ppm nitrate and elevated trace elements. The primary focus is on nitrification which is often taxed in medicated systems. We have a wet/dry filter with bio balls which will also aid in gas exchange.

The rest of water quality concerns can be addressed with water changes. We are set up to do partially automated water changes with fresh saltwater or display tank water. Toward the end of the QT they will get display tank water.

The when and how much question depends on bioload, medications, feeding and overall condition.

 

[aquainas]

Excellent progress gentlemen, the LED's are definitely bringing out the fluorescence in the corals and growth over the past three months seems to be steady as well.

Mr Wilson, what test kit are you using to measure CU levels using Cupramine? I've heard conflicting opinions regarding API and Seachem, though I've employed the API from day one.

 

[Elliott]

Nitrate and phosphate is not an area of focus for fish only tanks. You will get a little more algae, but our HT has a short photoperiod (shorter parasite life cycle) and relatively low lighting. Fish can easily tolerate 200ppm nitrate and elevated trace elements. The primary focus is on nitrification which is often taxed in medicated systems. We have a wet/dry filter with bio balls which will also aid in gas exchange.

The rest of water quality concerns can be addressed with water changes. We are set up to do partially automated water changes with fresh saltwater or display tank water. Toward the end of the QT they will get display tank water.

The when and how much question depends on bioload, medications, feeding and overall condition.

regarding your copper treated tanks, do you reuse these for general use after a vinegar bath or are they dedicated for copper?

you mentioned cross contamination of disease, is there also a concern for cross contaminating of copper into the DT?

 

[mr.wilson]

regarding your copper treated tanks, do you reuse these for general use after a vinegar bath or are they dedicated for copper?

you mentioned cross contamination of disease, is there also a concern for cross contaminating of copper into the DT?

The HT and QT tanks are dedicated tanks. The only thing that absorbs a significant amount of copper is calcareous substrate. It's difficult to keep copper in solution, that is why we use ionic forms of copper.

 

[mr.wilson]

Excellent progress gentlemen, the LED's are definitely bringing out the fluorescence in the corals and growth over the past three months seems to be steady as well.

Mr Wilson, what test kit are you using to measure CU levels using Cupramine? I've heard conflicting opinions regarding API and Seachem, though I've employed the API from day one.

I usually use Mardel Copper Safe, but I do use SeaChem Cupramine due to availability. I use the Salifert Cu kit, but don't find it to be accurate. If you don't have calcareous substrate then you can rely mostly on careful dosing, water change and top-up. I usually let it drop below therapeutic levels rather than risk overdose.

 

[Elliott]

The HT and QT tanks are dedicated tanks. The only thing that absorbs a significant amount of copper is calcareous substrate. It's difficult to keep copper in solution, that is why we use ionic forms of copper.

so you are running 3 separate systems? DT, HT and QT?

 

[mr.wilson]

so you are running 3 separate systems? DT, HT and QT?

Yes, four systems if you count the mars invert QT. Eventually, all of these systems will become holding tanks for misc. "pets".

 

[Elliott]

BTW, I want to post a message regarding the use of Copper. It is a known catalyst of angioneogenesis in humans, which means it promotes the generation of new blood vessels. Since most Cancers spread by a process of angioneogenesis it's best to avoid exposure to Copper. If for example you are using an airstone in a copper treated tank it would be wise not to breath the mist by wearing a mask, avoid skin contact by wearing latex gloves and generally minimize exposure.

 

[nuccadoc]

If I may, Aquainas I have used both Seachem's and API's kit to test copper and have found them both to be accurate. I was using both kits at the same time to verify my findings.

 

[mr.wilson]

Yes, use the Seachem test kit with the Seachem copper.