Posidion
Coral Gardner
no not to my knowledge, unless the laws of physics have changed and sand now floats ontop of water, thats the only way i can think to reverse a sand bed.. thats it pilgram :fun2:
Coral Tank from Canada (1350gal Display Tank)
- Thread starter nineball
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no not to my knowledge, unless the laws of physics have changed and sand now floats ontop of water, thats the only way i can think to reverse a sand bed.. thats it pilgram :fun2:
nineball
Active member
Public aquariums use lanthanum chloride for phosphate control. The dosing regimen is discussed here.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/2/aquarium
The common hobbyist method for Po4 reduction is ferrous oxide media. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/june2004/review.htm
Another media reactor you may want to consider is a denitrator, such as a sulphur reactor. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1288082
or a carbon source reactor such as NP Biopellets (solid vodka dosing as the kids call it these days).
On the subject of "doubling up on the skimmer size", it usually isn't a good idea, as they are designed for a certain load, so over-sizing generally causes premature bubble popping due to a loss of bubble stability/poor surface tension. In other words, the bubbles pop before they deliver their payload to the collection cup... and trust me, you don't want premature bubble popping before you even get to the collection cup
With regard to lighting, it's one of the easiest, albeit expensive aspects of the system to change as technology evolves. Having said that, you should go with the newest development on the market. The LED industry is tripping over itself as it grows by leaps and bounds. For this reason you may want to consider going with Cree brand LED lamps instead of the Philips product you are looking at, as they have been the industry leader for a few years now. http://www.cree.com/
Conversely, one of the areas that is almost impossible to correct later down the road while the tank is developing is the flow and respective plumbing. I think you're falling short on some of the flow criteria that must be met (variable flow, detritus suspension, surface skimming, surface ripples etc.). It's hard to tell from the pictures, but it looks like you don't have a wave or surge device of any description. You should invest a few minutes and give Paul at Oceansmotions a call about the drains, return lines and the closed loop. He's the experts, expert when it comes to flow dynamics.
It's good to see you dropped the bio balls. Personally, I don't think that they are as detrimental as some would suggest, but they are superfluous at best. I would rank their merit somewhere between adding a garden gnome or an umbrella holder, with the latter being the wise choice. The idea of using live rock in its place is a lateral move. I would use the space for a larger refugium or - here comes the shameless plug... a benthic/cryptic zone. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=969713
It's great that you have an open ear to what the RC members have to say. Of course you can't follow everyones advice, but I'm confident that your tank will be a success even if you take a few lefts (usually four) when you should have gone right
The key is to find your system's limiting factors and one by one eliminate the things that can go wrong. Create a modular system that paves the way to new technology and methodology as it evolves with us.
I agree with all the observations, top to bottom. You are causing me to loose sleep as these are all excellent refs and I have a bad habit of reading them all. There's a ton of good information emerging on this thread which is the same kind of phenomena I noticed on Chingchai's thread as well.
Your initial concern about the flow has hit the mark and the collective appears to agree with you. Rest assured that one way or another this one will be wrestled to the ground. I am tracking down the initial logic for the current design as I am hard pressed to disagree with any of the concerns related to the plumbing. There were a couple of parties involved with the design, one of which, has generally been accepted as above average when it comes to best practices. I need to upgrade my knowledge and I think I need to bring some additional information to the table that just might explain some of the apparent blindness to the obvious flow requirements for this tank. To his credit, Chingchai's reaction to my initial flyby of my plan did say that he had serious concern for the water movement in a tank of this size and layout. However, the genie, so to speak was already out of the bottle........
Peter
nineball
Active member
Public aquariums use lanthanum chloride for phosphate control. The dosing regimen is discussed here.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/2/aquarium
The common hobbyist method for Po4 reduction is ferrous oxide media. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/june2004/review.htm
Another media reactor you may want to consider is a denitrator, such as a sulphur reactor. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1288082
or a carbon source reactor such as NP Biopellets (solid vodka dosing as the kids call it these days).
On the subject of "doubling up on the skimmer size", it usually isn't a good idea, as they are designed for a certain load, so over-sizing generally causes premature bubble popping due to a loss of bubble stability/poor surface tension. In other words, the bubbles pop before they deliver their payload to the collection cup... and trust me, you don't want premature bubble popping before you even get to the collection cup
With regard to lighting, it's one of the easiest, albeit expensive aspects of the system to change as technology evolves. Having said that, you should go with the newest development on the market. The LED industry is tripping over itself as it grows by leaps and bounds. For this reason you may want to consider going with Cree brand LED lamps instead of the Philips product you are looking at, as they have been the industry leader for a few years now. http://www.cree.com/
Conversely, one of the areas that is almost impossible to correct later down the road while the tank is developing is the flow and respective plumbing. I think you're falling short on some of the flow criteria that must be met (variable flow, detritus suspension, surface skimming, surface ripples etc.). It's hard to tell from the pictures, but it looks like you don't have a wave or surge device of any description. You should invest a few minutes and give Paul at Oceansmotions a call about the drains, return lines and the closed loop. He's the experts, expert when it comes to flow dynamics.
It's good to see you dropped the bio balls. Personally, I don't think that they are as detrimental as some would suggest, but they are superfluous at best. I would rank their merit somewhere between adding a garden gnome or an umbrella holder, with the latter being the wise choice. The idea of using live rock in its place is a lateral move. I would use the space for a larger refugium or - here comes the shameless plug... a benthic/cryptic zone. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=969713
It's great that you have an open ear to what the RC members have to say. Of course you can't follow everyones advice, but I'm confident that your tank will be a success even if you take a few lefts (usually four) when you should have gone right
The key is to find your system's limiting factors and one by one eliminate the things that can go wrong. Create a modular system that paves the way to new technology and methodology as it evolves with us.
Also, the phillips LED lights are for outside tank ambience only. They are not intended for use inside the tank. They are a commercial system not available outside the Phillips domain or highly specialized distributers.
nineball
Active member
Thank you, you are correct about the aesthetics. Good analysis. I am determined to find better flow in any event........long before the first drop of salt water hits the tank.
Peter
nineball
Active member
nineball
Active member
plyr58
New member
Peter
I also think it is important to bring up the issue of the way you accomplish flow in your tank. I have always totally discounted the flow produced by the return pump in terms of the amount of turnover in a large reef tank for 2 reasons:
1. The flow from a return pump is entirely uni-directional.
Uni-directional flow is not typical flow pattern found on a reef in the wild and tends to work towards blowing the particulate food matter past corals rather than swirling the food around the coral.
Also, part of the benefit of erratic flow in a reef tank is that the coral (meaning the zooxanthellae within the coral) do respire and thus a layer of CO2 (normally a few microns thick) tends to envelop the coral structure itself. Uni-directional flow removes CO2 from only one portion of the coral structure while erratic flow encompasses the entire coral's structure, thus ensuring proper respiration.
2. Bigger is not necessarily better when it comes to flow from your main pump.
Presumably the function of your main circulation pump is bring water out of your DT to be filtered by your skimmer, refugium, RDSB, etc. In several of these filtration sources (refugium, RDSB, crypic zone, and whatnot) a very slow flow is desired for full effectiveness. Also, you skimmer has a maximum effective flow rate (for the purposes of this explanation let's say 1000 gph). If you skimmer can only process 1000 gph, blowing two or three times that through the sump accomplishes water movement in the DT but does not effectuate efficient filtration via skimming.
Why pay more to purchase and run a bigger pump (and add more heat to the water) if increased flow results in a more laminar water pattern and is no more effective in terms of filtration?
I also think it is important to bring up the issue of the way you accomplish flow in your tank. I have always totally discounted the flow produced by the return pump in terms of the amount of turnover in a large reef tank for 2 reasons:
1. The flow from a return pump is entirely uni-directional.
Uni-directional flow is not typical flow pattern found on a reef in the wild and tends to work towards blowing the particulate food matter past corals rather than swirling the food around the coral.
Also, part of the benefit of erratic flow in a reef tank is that the coral (meaning the zooxanthellae within the coral) do respire and thus a layer of CO2 (normally a few microns thick) tends to envelop the coral structure itself. Uni-directional flow removes CO2 from only one portion of the coral structure while erratic flow encompasses the entire coral's structure, thus ensuring proper respiration.
2. Bigger is not necessarily better when it comes to flow from your main pump.
Presumably the function of your main circulation pump is bring water out of your DT to be filtered by your skimmer, refugium, RDSB, etc. In several of these filtration sources (refugium, RDSB, crypic zone, and whatnot) a very slow flow is desired for full effectiveness. Also, you skimmer has a maximum effective flow rate (for the purposes of this explanation let's say 1000 gph). If you skimmer can only process 1000 gph, blowing two or three times that through the sump accomplishes water movement in the DT but does not effectuate efficient filtration via skimming.
Why pay more to purchase and run a bigger pump (and add more heat to the water) if increased flow results in a more laminar water pattern and is no more effective in terms of filtration?
nineball
Active member
Thanks for the reference Bax. I have been following that thread from the outset. It looks like he is using the drive shaft from the Titanic. I am determined to better understand what the intent was for my current design and then share that with you guys and then hopefully make some sense of an optimal configuration for flow.
Thanks for your input and support. It is hugely appreciated.
Peter
Ken_Baird
New member
Tim the Tool Man has his Mr. Wilson, and we in the reefing community have ours!
I wish I had 1/5th of our Mr. Wilson's knowledge :thumbsup:, Then I could say I know what I'm doing :beer:
nineball
Active member
I owe you better pics and will try and do that tomorrow.....yes there are two overflows at each end.......
Peter
nineball
Active member
Thank you for your generous comments and the ref on the penductor. It looks very interesting.
Peter
Ps. I'll take your rambling anytime you have the energy!!!!!!
nineball
Active member
Tony, how is that possible, I would think they would be mandatory to catch stuff from gumming up the works??????no???
Peter
plyr58
New member
Also, if you are a slow typist, have you thought about Dragon NaturallySpeaking? I use it to dictate complaints and letters and whatnot at work and it has significantly sped up my practice. I even use it to post on here. The Preferred edition is 200 bucks and it takes about 20 minutes to install and to do the initial training. I would say that it was more than 90 percent accurate out of the box and as you use it learns how you speak and become more accurate. It was easily 98% accurate after 2 weeks. Now VERY close to 100%.
The Preferred edition is 200 bucks and it takes about 20 minutes to install and to do the initial training. I would say that it was more than 90 percent accurate out of the box and as you use it learns how you speak and become more accurate. It was easily 98% accurate after 2 weeks. Now VERY close to 100%.
plyr58
New member
Nope. 20 year old technology. They trap debris in the system and you HAVE to be religious about changing the media and doing thorough cleanings. Otherwise they become nitrate factories.
The self changing filtration system I linked to earlier would be much more effective than a canister filter. A sump is, in effect, an open and much more effective canister filter.
nineball
Active member
If this is your first post you are very welcome to our growing community. The tank in the video works well if you can judge the quality of life as a result. I can't believe how much there is to learn about this hobby........or obsession!!!!
Thanks for your comment and perspective.
Peter
nineball
Active member
Daniel, nothing is too good or expensive for our tank..........what is important is that it result in the best quality result for our coral and fish.
No I haven't had a chance yet to distil the feeback into a suggested strategy so we would welcome any additional ideas or feedback for folks who would like to comment.
Peter
nineball
Active member
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