Coral Tank from Canada (1350gal Display Tank)
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nineball
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nineball
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have you read any of the books our there? one i found particularly helpful for the building phase is "The Reef Aquarium" Vol III by Charles Delbeek and Julian Sprung.
on my tank like l posted above i have the closed loops coming in the bottom of the tank much like you do with two Hammerhead pumps and 2 OM 4ways.
right now neither OM is working and one pump is also off line.
a few weeks ago i turned the pumps off to do some maintenance in the tank. when i was finished i turned the pumps on but did not notice the OM's did not come back on. i looked closer when a couple areas of the tank developed Cyano. in attempting to get them going again i turned the pumps off and on a few times. then one of the pumps would not come back on.
so under the tank i went to turn off all the valves and take the pump out. guess what, one of the valves would not budge. i am afraid to apply much force to it for fear of breaking the seal at the BOTTOM of my tank...
in the next couple of weeks i am breaking my tank down and abandoning the closed loops and OM's. i will keep one of the pumps to pump to the two surges.
here are a few comments by Eric Borneman about closed loops- this was originally on a thread on Marine Depot Forums. at a thread located here http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic107347-9-1.aspx
Here's what I think, and I say this despite the fact that I know others use these things, may be successful and not have problems, and may disagree with me. I say this because I have been down that road personally or been involved with these issues with others more times than I care to think.
Closed loops and the valves and plumbing. Ditch 'em. Ditch 'em all. I did the closed loop thing because when that idea first came out, it seemed to be a good solution to getting more flow in a tank given that powerheads at the time sucked so badly for larger tanks. But, the idea of using big expensive high power draw pumps to push water through lots of toxic PVC, splitting it and having tons of pipes that get filled with all manner of growth is dumb and wasteful and overly complex and past its time. It all needs regular maintenance that is rarely if ever done because of what a PITA it is to do it. The valves everyone uses - straight valves - are horrible. They always get stuck over periods of time. I wouldn't use another straight valve in a tank if you paid me.
and powerheads use a fraction of the electricity of external pumps and are so much easier to clean. my goal is reduce the electric bill as close as possible to zero. (i have a 10Kw solar system)
when i redo my tank i will set the one remaining drain in the bottom of the tank such that i can screw a pipe into the intake pipe and make a standpipe above the water level in the tank so when i need to remove the pump i can do it even if the valve fails.
Carl, we do have the same great taste in books......at least in fish books I think. The wall that you have hit with this architecture is not unusual. In fact it is getting increasingly rare to find alot of passion behind closed loop systems. I think its safe to say it is more expensive on every level. And unless you are unusually careful and prudent disasters are never minor in their impact or resolution.
So please don't ask me why I am considering this approach after that. I have a ton more reading and listening to do..........Your experience you have shared here is making my team verrrry verrrrry nervous. Thank you.
Peter
nineball
Active member
Dave, chalk it up to a huge case of overkill. That's why I've got 2,200 lbs of live rock headed for the fish room!!!! More on this later.
Peter
nineball
Active member
Noted and that's also in the hopper for discussion.
Thanks Bohlke, good to see you hanging in.
Peter
just another note, in case you haven't already purchased all that live rock, it would be substantially cheaper to buy dry rock, and then seed it with a few pieces in the tank covered with coraline algae and some other substance, like the live bacteria offered from someone like zeovit or brightwell. It would really all be the same thing, and there would be much less of a risk getting lots of unwanted critters in your tank, that I'm sure you will have with putting over 2000 pounds of fresh live rock.
nineball
Active member
Fasinating ideas, certainly out of the box thinking and well worth exploring NeverlosT. Neat ideas really....I am trying to make sure that whatever the final plumbing design looks like that I have sufficient power options to handle any variety of options.
Thank you for your insight and support. It is very much appreciated.
Peter
PS. I hope you will approve of the lighting configuration. My plan is to solve the water issues first before I open up that Pandoras box. Hopefully soon.
nineball
Active member
Thanks but its on the plane...............
Don't worry JMONEY, I got an extra firm toothbrush!!!
Peter
nineball
Active member
Even though I have never used a closed loop system, I hear far too many negatives about them. This design that you are going for is very similar to what I'm planning in my new house. The difference is that I will be having the tank built at the house, although I'm sure my neighbors would love the site of a crane lifting a massive underwater aquarium into my house
Furthermore, as powerheads go...I saw an idea that I liked not too long ago that was done by Ed Reef on his new aquarium, he purchased these rocks made to hide tunze powerheads, and when I look at all of his tank shots I can never see them, they are completely hidden, yet he has incredible flow. If you can try and dig up the link to ed's tank or I'm sure someone can provide it, it is a great thread with lots of information. His tank has no visible appearance of any equipment, and is really as he titled it the shallow crest, inspired art.
Love the house by the way, can't wait to see what you do next.
-Jeff
I will be looking forward to your build thread. Thanks for the ref to Ed Reef. I will check it out.
Peter
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
Public aquariums use lanthanum chloride for phosphate control. The dosing regimen is discussed here.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/2/aquarium
The common hobbyist method for Po4 reduction is ferrous oxide media. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/june2004/review.htm
Another media reactor you may want to consider is a denitrator, such as a sulphur reactor. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1288082
or a carbon source reactor such as NP Biopellets (solid vodka dosing as the kids call it these days).
On the subject of "doubling up on the skimmer size", it usually isn't a good idea, as they are designed for a certain load, so over-sizing generally causes premature bubble popping due to a loss of bubble stability/poor surface tension. In other words, the bubbles pop before they deliver their payload to the collection cup... and trust me, you don't want premature bubble popping before you even get to the collection cup
With regard to lighting, it's one of the easiest, albeit expensive aspects of the system to change as technology evolves. Having said that, you should go with the newest development on the market. The LED industry is tripping over itself as it grows by leaps and bounds. For this reason you may want to consider going with Cree brand LED lamps instead of the Philips product you are looking at, as they have been the industry leader for a few years now. http://www.cree.com/
Conversely, one of the areas that is almost impossible to correct later down the road while the tank is developing is the flow and respective plumbing. I think you're falling short on some of the flow criteria that must be met (variable flow, detritus suspension, surface skimming, surface ripples etc.). It's hard to tell from the pictures, but it looks like you don't have a wave or surge device of any description. You should invest a few minutes and give Paul at Oceansmotions a call about the drains, return lines and the closed loop. He's the experts, expert when it comes to flow dynamics.
It's good to see you dropped the bio balls. Personally, I don't think that they are as detrimental as some would suggest, but they are superfluous at best. I would rank their merit somewhere between adding a garden gnome or an umbrella holder, with the latter being the wise choice. The idea of using live rock in its place is a lateral move. I would use the space for a larger refugium or - here comes the shameless plug... a benthic/cryptic zone. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=969713
It's great that you have an open ear to what the RC members have to say. Of course you can't follow everyones advice, but I'm confident that your tank will be a success even if you take a few lefts (usually four) when you should have gone right
The key is to find your system's limiting factors and one by one eliminate the things that can go wrong. Create a modular system that paves the way to new technology and methodology as it evolves with us.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/2/aquarium
The common hobbyist method for Po4 reduction is ferrous oxide media. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/june2004/review.htm
Another media reactor you may want to consider is a denitrator, such as a sulphur reactor. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1288082
or a carbon source reactor such as NP Biopellets (solid vodka dosing as the kids call it these days).
On the subject of "doubling up on the skimmer size", it usually isn't a good idea, as they are designed for a certain load, so over-sizing generally causes premature bubble popping due to a loss of bubble stability/poor surface tension. In other words, the bubbles pop before they deliver their payload to the collection cup... and trust me, you don't want premature bubble popping before you even get to the collection cup
With regard to lighting, it's one of the easiest, albeit expensive aspects of the system to change as technology evolves. Having said that, you should go with the newest development on the market. The LED industry is tripping over itself as it grows by leaps and bounds. For this reason you may want to consider going with Cree brand LED lamps instead of the Philips product you are looking at, as they have been the industry leader for a few years now. http://www.cree.com/
Conversely, one of the areas that is almost impossible to correct later down the road while the tank is developing is the flow and respective plumbing. I think you're falling short on some of the flow criteria that must be met (variable flow, detritus suspension, surface skimming, surface ripples etc.). It's hard to tell from the pictures, but it looks like you don't have a wave or surge device of any description. You should invest a few minutes and give Paul at Oceansmotions a call about the drains, return lines and the closed loop. He's the experts, expert when it comes to flow dynamics.
It's good to see you dropped the bio balls. Personally, I don't think that they are as detrimental as some would suggest, but they are superfluous at best. I would rank their merit somewhere between adding a garden gnome or an umbrella holder, with the latter being the wise choice. The idea of using live rock in its place is a lateral move. I would use the space for a larger refugium or - here comes the shameless plug... a benthic/cryptic zone. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=969713
It's great that you have an open ear to what the RC members have to say. Of course you can't follow everyones advice, but I'm confident that your tank will be a success even if you take a few lefts (usually four) when you should have gone right
The key is to find your system's limiting factors and one by one eliminate the things that can go wrong. Create a modular system that paves the way to new technology and methodology as it evolves with us.
bohlke
PBITAWA
Public aquariums use lanthanum chloride for phosphate control. The dosing regimen is discussed here.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/2/aquarium
The common hobbyist method for Po4 reduction is ferrous oxide media. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/june2004/review.htm
Another media reactor you may want to consider is a denitrator, such as a sulphur reactor. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1288082
or a carbon source reactor such as NP Biopellets (solid vodka dosing as the kids call it these days).
On the subject of "doubling up on the skimmer size", it usually isn't a good idea, as they are designed for a certain load, so over-sizing generally causes premature bubble popping due to a loss of bubble stability/poor surface tension. In other words, the bubbles pop before they deliver their payload to the collection cup... and trust me, you don't want premature bubble popping before you even get to the collection cup
With regard to lighting, it's one of the easiest, albeit expensive aspects of the system to change as technology evolves. Having said that, you should go with the newest development on the market. The LED industry is tripping over itself as it grows by leaps and bounds. For this reason you may want to consider going with Cree brand LED lamps instead of the Philips product you are looking at, as they have been the industry leader for a few years now. http://www.cree.com/
Conversely, one of the areas that is almost impossible to correct later down the road while the tank is developing is the flow and respective plumbing. I think you're falling short on some of the flow criteria that must be met (variable flow, detritus suspension, surface skimming, surface ripples etc.). It's hard to tell from the pictures, but it looks like you don't have a wave or surge device of any description. You should invest a few minutes and give Paul at Oceansmotions a call about the drains, return lines and the closed loop. He's the experts, expert when it comes to flow dynamics.
It's good to see you dropped the bio balls. Personally, I don't think that they are as detrimental as some would suggest, but they are superfluous at best. I would rank their merit somewhere between adding a garden gnome or an umbrella holder, with the latter being the wise choice. The idea of using live rock in its place is a lateral move. I would use the space for a larger refugium or - here comes the shameless plug... a benthic/cryptic zone. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=969713
It's great that you have an open ear to what the RC members have to say. Of course you can't follow everyones advice, but I'm confident that your tank will be a success even if you take a few lefts (usually four) when you should have gone right
The key is to find your system's limiting factors and one by one eliminate the things that can go wrong. Create a modular system that paves the way to new technology and methodology as it evolves with us.
Another filtration idea to consider is the RDSB, its a long read but a good one:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=595109&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
flying_dutchman
New member
Unfortunately his tank crashed recently
YGPM, I can't post link on here...
cloakerpoked
New member
I remember reading about the RDSB, but I'd be interested to know how many people have actually used them, and to what degree they have been successful.
As for the flow...I am thinking a few things that haven't been mentioned yet, but I think bear mentioning. Probably the only pro that I can see in using a closed loop would be an aesthetic one. Lets not forget, that this tank has 14 feet of water between the inside of the "L" and the long end. That's way too much water for any pump to achieve any kind of flow out to the end without blasting everything in its path clear on over to British Columbia in the process. This leaves two options: Closed loop, or powerheads. Powerheads would be my choice in pretty much every single application, except that this tank (unlike Chingchai's and most of ours) is intended to be viewed from the front and the back. Since the viewing panels are the only places to mount his powerheads to achieve flow via powerhead in this region of the tank, you can see an obvious drawback to this kind of scenario...not to mention the power cords. The closed loop very neatly deals with this issue very nicely. I'm not sure how practical this would be, or whether space and structure would allow it, but what about a surge system, probably consisting of several tanks set to run off in different intervals. This would achieve a wave effect, would not invade viewable panels, and would at least deal with some of the CL concerns, although you're still talking about a lot of plumbing and PVC everywhere. I'm sure there are 50 billion problems with this that I haven't considered, but I just don't know if powerheads and conventional wavemakers would really be ideal for the front and back to both be considered "viewable."
As for the flow...I am thinking a few things that haven't been mentioned yet, but I think bear mentioning. Probably the only pro that I can see in using a closed loop would be an aesthetic one. Lets not forget, that this tank has 14 feet of water between the inside of the "L" and the long end. That's way too much water for any pump to achieve any kind of flow out to the end without blasting everything in its path clear on over to British Columbia in the process. This leaves two options: Closed loop, or powerheads. Powerheads would be my choice in pretty much every single application, except that this tank (unlike Chingchai's and most of ours) is intended to be viewed from the front and the back. Since the viewing panels are the only places to mount his powerheads to achieve flow via powerhead in this region of the tank, you can see an obvious drawback to this kind of scenario...not to mention the power cords. The closed loop very neatly deals with this issue very nicely. I'm not sure how practical this would be, or whether space and structure would allow it, but what about a surge system, probably consisting of several tanks set to run off in different intervals. This would achieve a wave effect, would not invade viewable panels, and would at least deal with some of the CL concerns, although you're still talking about a lot of plumbing and PVC everywhere. I'm sure there are 50 billion problems with this that I haven't considered, but I just don't know if powerheads and conventional wavemakers would really be ideal for the front and back to both be considered "viewable."
bohlke
PBITAWA
I have had one on my system for about a year and a half, nitrates went from 5-10ppm to < 1ppm and have stayed < 1ppm since. Now my system is small but I only needed a 5G bucket. One of our club members recently added a larger one on his 1000G system and I think he is getting good results, time will tell.
cloakerpoked
New member
Now I'm laughing at myself for not reading the link. I was thinking he was talking about a reverse deep sand bed where you actually run the water up from the bottom of a deep sand bed. A few people do that, and believe it works. REMOTE deep sand beds on the other hand are nothing new to me, and I wouldn't question it's usefulness at all. As stated in the link (now that I took the time to look at it) the risk is so minimal with a RDSB. Space would be the only limit for a tank this size...
Bax
Premium Member
There is some good discussion on flow in a huge aquarim in this thread ...
http://reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=252&order=desc&page=4
.. It's Diablo's 2,200g cylinder tank. While his tank shape is 180 degrees from yours, there some food for thought here on big tank flow.
Obviously, I have worked on a much smaller scale than either Diablo's or your very ambitious and fantastic systems, but I have played with closed loops in many configurations. I keep going back to multiple power heads. every time I reconfigure a plan and analyze it, it is cost of power and overall less flow for the dollar that turns me away from the CL. As for surges, it's the limited tank construction that keeps me from going in that direction, as I am always working with used tanks as my system evolves.
For my 375, I have all but abandoned the CL option, I may indulge myself in a single CL circut that drives a tidal shift four times a day, but that's only because I've already sprung for the 2" power actuaded vales to direct the "tide", so at this point, what the heck?
Given the caliber of your tank construction, you have to consider the surge as a big component of flow for this tank. I have to think power heads, but maybe not common Tunze or VorTechs (especially since the VTs don't mount to the thicker tanks) . The thruster mentioned in Diablo's thread could really be a big value in terms of flow if placed at the " L", along with the "Big" Tunzes being used for spot flow as needed.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=252&order=desc&page=4
.. It's Diablo's 2,200g cylinder tank. While his tank shape is 180 degrees from yours, there some food for thought here on big tank flow.
Obviously, I have worked on a much smaller scale than either Diablo's or your very ambitious and fantastic systems, but I have played with closed loops in many configurations. I keep going back to multiple power heads. every time I reconfigure a plan and analyze it, it is cost of power and overall less flow for the dollar that turns me away from the CL. As for surges, it's the limited tank construction that keeps me from going in that direction, as I am always working with used tanks as my system evolves.
For my 375, I have all but abandoned the CL option, I may indulge myself in a single CL circut that drives a tidal shift four times a day, but that's only because I've already sprung for the 2" power actuaded vales to direct the "tide", so at this point, what the heck?
Given the caliber of your tank construction, you have to consider the surge as a big component of flow for this tank. I have to think power heads, but maybe not common Tunze or VorTechs (especially since the VTs don't mount to the thicker tanks) . The thruster mentioned in Diablo's thread could really be a big value in terms of flow if placed at the " L", along with the "Big" Tunzes being used for spot flow as needed.
bohlke
PBITAWA
Thats why I like them I just havent seen a downside. I believe the RDSB on Jims 1000G system is a 30G rubbermaid tub with a DSB that is about 17" deep with a 1-2" deep water volume traveling across the top.
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