Coral Tank from Canada (1350gal Display Tank)

[ksed]

Mr. Wilson, I cannot tell you how completely appreciative I am and I know this group would agree that we very much value the time you take to dissect these issues to our benefit. I am privileged sir to have you as part of our citizenry.

One of the decisions I have taken after the examination of this subject in fair detail that does not seem out of favour with the distillation of your observations here, is to delay further contemplation of the Dialyseas product for immediate deployment.

As others have noted, and not too delicately I might add, I do not have a sufficiently strong baseline of experience to properly asses the effectiveness and efficiency of the technology. Its not that this design is inappropriate, its my ability to judge it properly in this setting. I have concluded that I might have the best of both worlds. I have already designed a water change capability that will allow me to have 210 gal of prepared SW on-stand by and 210 gal of SW for weekly water changes. I have concluded, based on clear evidence taken from Chingchai's experience as well as other large closely managed environments that significant water changes do more good than harm. I have also observed that if I need help and coaching there is a huge practical base of experience I can call on where the Dialyseas product experience is still limited at best.

Having said all of that I am still not prevented from returning to this technology when I have sufficient stability and balance in the fish room/ display tank ecosystem. I plan to examine all systems in play and planned over the first year with an eye to establishing best practices including measures to optimize the required energy in managing the whole system. I anticipate having a baseline of information that I can use to support a proper trial of the Dialyseas product.

The indecision on the Dialyseas unit was preventing the final blueprints from being completed for the fish room so this course will help pick up the pace.

More decisions next...........

Peter

I think you should contact Mr. Wilson!

 

[nineball]

Here is a photo of a tank with 15 gallons of sand in the overflow. You can see one of the "breathing tubes" at the top. Sorry, the picture is a little dark, but the overflow is on the right hand side (48" tall).

I didn't realize that was even an option. It makes a ton of sense. How often would you think you need to change out the sand????

That would also, as noted, have a great impact on noise and bubbles......

I assume if its good in one end there is no reason not to do it in both ?????

Peter

 

[PauChi]

I have already designed a water change capability that will allow me to have 210 gal of prepared SW on-stand by and 210 gal of SW for weekly water changes.

Peter

Hey Peter ... now you got my :eek2: here!!! Care to elaborate what you've come up with in respect to the 210 gallon water change system?

Thx,
Paul

 

[Padrino]

Back to your DSB location, you can always fill the bottom 2/3 of your overflow boxes with sand. I'm assuming you are using an 80-90% siphon drain with a 10-20% durso/aspirated drain to pick up the slack. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1310585

It may not be big enough for your system, but it's a good use of dead space. I use perforated PVC tubes imbedded in the sand to increase the barrier layer (more sand/water interface/surface area) and to allow access for carbon source dosing, solid vodka media, and sulphur media replacement. A heater or air line could also be placed in the tubes for passive flow around the sand.

Very interesting, I assume you are using a type of N/P reducing pellets? I am also using this but running it in a tlf phosban reactor which fairly high flow through it. Only thing is when you increase the flow it like raises the most of the media up towards the top of the reactor. I am also still dosing a small amount of MB7 and vodka to keep up with bacteria population

Could you perhaps post a few pictures of this or pm me? I'm interested how you are doing this

 

[Padrino]

Hey Peter ... now you got my :eek2: here!!! Care to elaborate what you've come up with in respect to the 210 gallon water change system?

Thx,
Paul

Yes paul makes a good point, as in your equipment video it did not look like you had 210 gallons of extra volume in your sump.

Potentially if you had a large enough sump, you could change 210 gallons within the sump without making or effecting the main system whatsoever. It would be extremely easy and convenient

Also you have not mentioned what salt you will be using to complete your water changes with or to initially fill the system. Have i jumped the gun again?

 

[mr.wilson]

I didn't realize that was even an option. It makes a ton of sense. How often would you think you need to change out the sand????

That would also, as noted, have a great impact on noise and bubbles......

I assume if its good in one end there is no reason not to do it in both ?????

Peter

It's a trade secret, don't tell anyone

Yes, add it to both end panels. If the water overflows aggressively, add course sand to the top inch to avoid and storms, but it shouldn't be an issue if the box is designed correctly.

The sand never needs to be changed out. In the old days we changed it annually because calcareous media like coral sand is a silicate and phosphate sink, constantly binding and releasing nutrients back into your tank. With modern phosphate media filters and other devices that is no longer a concern.

It's a bacterial and to a lesser extent, chemical process taking place in the DSB. This is an area where hobbyists can run wild with experiments using carbon sources, sulphur beads, sand mixes and yes magic mud. Studies have shown that nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria populate detritus on the sand forming a slime coat or biofilm, rather than simply growing on the sand grain itself. This is an area that may give magic mud credit. The slight turbulence of an overflow box would turn the already partially buoyant magic mud into a fluidized bed. This would give you a much larger barrier layer between the media (in our case mud) and the nutrient rich water.

You can also create a passive flow through the sand or mud by installing a heat source below the overflow box. As the heat rises up through the box it takes with it a very gentle current of water. This would be just enough to expose more water to the media without turning the bed into an aerobic zone. Denitrifying bacteria colonizes aerobic (oxygen-rich) as well as anaerobic (oxygen-poor) zones. The DSB should offer a variety of conditions for different species of denitrifying bacteria.

If you are following any of the carbon dosing threads, I'm sure you have read this one. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16870882#post16870882 In the good old days we dosed lactose, ethanol (vodka), or a glucose solution daily in a slow flow media reactor. These days the common practice is to dump much higher doses directly into the system. Feeding a carbon source in smaller, controlled doses, directly to the bacterial bed in a DSB rather makes more sense to me still. The argument for shotgun dosing the whole tank is that microbes living on coral tissue consume nutrients (phosphate & nitrate) at the source on a collectively high level.

It would be easy to isolate which (DSB or microbes on coral tissue) is more active with denitrifiers (nitrate reducing bacteria) by running a few test tanks, but no one has expressed an interest in the matter. Maybe you can dedicate a row of your mars bars and let us know Personally, my money is on the DSB and the popularity of bulk dosing is a product of simplicity. Vitamin C is photo degradable and hydrophobic (skims out easily) so most of the ascorbic acid added is quickly removed anyway. This would not be the case in a DSB overflow box where there is no light to degrade it and its safe from your protein skimmer. Just drop a much smaller dose into a perforated PVC or Nylon "feeder tube" in the overflow DSB and you get direct feeding without waste or residual chemicals.

I'll start working on some more confusing ideas for you to consider. Preferably ones that you can't do much research on to torture you even further

 

[nineball]

I agree with you 100 per cent Mr. Wilson. My client's tanks that have consistent weekly water changes, that I do manually, seem to thrive the best, have the stabilist water chemistry and the least nitrate and phosphate problems.

As you may have noted by now, I have decided to look at the Dialyseas after the manual systems have been perfected. A little more expensive perhaps but in my case a great deal more prudent.

Peter

 

[Padrino]

It's a trade secret, don't tell anyone

Yes, add it to both end panels. If the water overflows aggressively, add course sand to the top inch to avoid and storms, but it shouldn't be an issue if the box is designed correctly.

The sand never needs to be changed out. In the old days we changed it annually because calcareous media like coral sand is a silicate and phosphate sink, constantly binding and releasing nutrients back into your tank. With modern phosphate media filters and other devices that is no longer a concern.

It's a bacterial and to a lesser extent, chemical process taking place in the DSB. This is an area where hobbyists can run wild with experiments using carbon sources, sulphur beads, sand mixes and yes magic mud. Studies have shown that nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria populate detritus on the sand forming a slime coat or biofilm, rather than simply growing on the sand grain itself. This is an area that may give magic mud credit. The slight turbulence of an overflow box would turn the already partially buoyant magic mud into a fluidized bed. This would give you a much larger barrier layer between the media (in our case mud) and the nutrient rich water.

You can also create a passive flow through the sand or mud by installing a heat source below the overflow box. As the heat rises up through the box it takes with it a very gentle current of water. This would be just enough to expose more water to the media without turning the bed into an aerobic zone. Denitrifying bacteria colonizes aerobic (oxygen-rich) as well as anaerobic (oxygen-poor) zones. The DSB should offer a variety of conditions for different species of denitrifying bacteria.

If you are following any of the carbon dosing threads, I'm sure you have read this one. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16870882#post16870882 In the good old days we dosed lactose, ethanol (vodka), or a glucose solution daily in a slow flow media reactor. These days the common practice is to dump much higher doses directly into the system. Feeding a carbon source in smaller, controlled doses, directly to the bacterial bed in a DSB rather makes more sense to me still. The argument for shotgun dosing the whole tank is that microbes living on coral tissue consume nutrients (phosphate & nitrate) at the source on a collectively high level.

It would be easy to isolate which (DSB or microbes on coral tissue) is more active with denitrifiers (nitrate reducing bacteria) by running a few test tanks, but no one has expressed an interest in the matter. Maybe you can dedicate a row of your mars bars and let us know Personally, my money is on the DSB and the popularity of bulk dosing is a product of simplicity. Vitamin C is photo degradable and hydrophobic (skims out easily) so most of the ascorbic acid added is quickly removed anyway. This would not be the case in a DSB overflow box where there is no light to degrade it and its safe from your protein skimmer. Just drop a much smaller dose into a perforated PVC or Nylon "feeder tube" in the overflow DSB and you get direct feeding without waste or residual chemicals.

I'll start working on some more confusing ideas for you to consider. Preferably ones that you can't do much research on to torture you even further

Mr. Wilson,
This is a good idea but what about when you take the overflow durso out to clean and do maintenance. Then all the sand would rush into your pipes and create a new problem. I really like your idea here but i think it potentially limits your chance to complete proper maintenance. Would you not agree?

If you are doing this, could you post some pictures?

 

[nineball]

I'm not sure why there is any question whether this product is a good product. I think anyone that owns one will tell you its great. I think what Daniel is arguing is its not worth the cost of the unit and that most people could do what its doing and save some money.

From what I've read, i don't think cost is an issue here. If your going all out, why cut yourself short.

Peter,
My controller has saved me more than once. I think many of us would agree that the more fail safes and redundancies the better. Also having automation will take some stress off you. If you have to do everything it will seem like a chore and you will not be able to enjoy the hobby. Having automation is good. If you want to perform your own manual water change or whatever, you still can.

We are in agreement, I am just going to bring automation on line after I have achieved a balance with the manual.

Peter

 

[mr.wilson]

Very interesting, I assume you are using a type of N/P reducing pellets? I am also using this but running it in a tlf phosban reactor which fairly high flow through it. Only thing is when you increase the flow it like raises the most of the media up towards the top of the reactor. I am also still dosing a small amount of MB7 and vodka to keep up with bacteria population

Could you perhaps post a few pictures of this or pm me? I'm interested how you are doing this

I haven't had the opportunity to use N/P pellets yet. Paul aka "p.s.silva" is a local Canadian here on RC who is using it in a fluidized bed reactor. It looks like a lentil soup reactor, but if it balances dosing and cuts down on the labour I'm in. You should Pm him for details. I saw it on his tank at a club meeting a few weeks ago but it was still relatively new. He posted on this thread earlier so maybe he will chime in on the subject. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/member.php?u=102166

 

[nineball]

PETE at the end of the day, your wallet is your best friend when its full of paper.

Mine is jammed with paper... Visa receipts

I'm with Mr. Wilson on this one..........:sad2:

Peter

 

[Padrino]

I haven't had the opportunity to use N/P pellets yet. Paul aka "p.s.silva" is a local Canadian here on RC who is using it in a fluidized bed reactor. It looks like a lentil soup reactor, but if it balances dosing and cuts down on the labour I'm in. You should Pm him for details. I saw it on his tank at a club meeting a few weeks ago but it was still relatively new. He posted on this thread earlier so maybe he will chime in on the subject. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/member.php?u=102166

great thanks!

 

[nineball]

Peter,
you must be a GM or corporate executive. You never answer questions directly and are fantastic at diverting questions and morphing subjects. You remind me of my General manager

In my book Padrino these are NOT admirable qualities..........sounds kind of slippery to me. :hmm2:

Peter

 

[nineball]

You may be less bewitched, bothered and bewildered with the knowledge that the rest of us are also in the dark. Be weary of people who claim to be completely successful in this hobby, and definitely don't believe their golf scores ...but as the saying goes, I'd rather be lucky than skilled.

You picked a good hobby. You won't get this level of debate on the gardening and compost forums. I wouldn't worry too much about getting everything exactly right the first time around, no one does... and it makes for good reading

Try to assure that your decisions leave options for changes in the future. Pumps and lighting are easy to upgrade, while the plumbing infrastructure is very difficult to change.

Stick with your decisions and see them through. It takes a while to establish if a technology or methodology truly works. A common mistake is to swap out protein skimmers and pumps two or three times, while the root of the problem lies elsewhere in biology, not technology.

There are a number of devices out there that aren't necessary, but very few of them are detrimental. Some people opt to set-up concurrent methods, then one by one discontinue them in the hopes of isolating which ones are of greatest value. The difficulty lies in the wild card that nature deals us.

It's almost impossible to attribute success to any one method or device. It's like the old pint of beer & penicillin treatment. The combination of the two cures the infection every time. I can site articles that prove beer isn't a catalyst to a miracle cure, but I'm not about to talk you out of having one

I see wisdom and common sense still prevail.......... This certainly bolsters my confidence. This environment can sometimes make you forget that.........

:fun4: Peter

 

[PauChi]

I like carbon dosing and with the availability of various N/P Pellets in the market ... I'm wondering outloud if Peter's tank may benefit from this Phosphate and Nitrate eliminating media application??? I haven't tried the Pellet media yet but on vodka dosing still which is working great so far.

Paul

 

[Padrino]

In my book Padrino these are NOT admirable qualities..........sounds kind of slippery to me. :hmm2:

Peter

As you may not feel they are good skills, others may disagree with you as those skills help in great facilitation. It can help the chair of a meeting control where and how the meeting will flow and which direction it will follow.

I apologize if you feel i have insulted you. That was not my intention at all.
sorry

Rob

 

[nineball]

I agree, I guarantee that once you get the tank set up you will be changing the flow and adding power heads in different areas. Once corals are in place, you will see how they react and depending if you take the advice about pre-drilling the liverock then you can move corals quickly and safely otherwise you will be moving pumps and adjusting flow properties. Either way you can't get away from it. It is probably one of the most challenging aspects but when you get it right its very rewarding!

I have fourteen return heads from the open system. This combined with the flow from the CL should give me a begining foundation I hope to seek those rewards you refer to.

Peter

 

[PauChi]

... and to witness massive colonies of your prefered corals being introduced into your biggie tank ... oh my :bigeyes:!! May I ask what type of choice corals are you really interested to add to your water museum :lol:??

Paul

 

[nineball]

Hey Peter ... now you got my :eek2: here!!! Care to elaborate what you've come up with in respect to the 210 gallon water change system?

Thx,
Paul

Now that we have committed to the manual approach we are looking at how the plumbing might be configured to meet this requirement and still allow a downstream possibility of adding the Dialyseas unit later. Frankly I am not sure I have a sensible answer to your question yet but I will on sat when I sit with Mike to help store our truckload of live rock.........finally. My gloves are at the ready........

Peter

 

[PauChi]

..... Frankly I am not sure I have a sensible answer to your question yet but I will on sat when I sit with Mike to help store our truckload of live rock.........finally. My gloves are at the ready........

Peter

I will be checking from my laptop 'thruout this long weekend ... this is too addictive ... Peter :fun4:!!!

Thx,
Paul