Coral Tank from Canada (1350gal Display Tank)
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mr.wilson
.Registered Member
If you want to research Miracle mud, add the creators name "Leng SY". I think it was around 1994. It gained rapidly in popularity, then died off just as quickly. Some people still swear by it.
It's easy to measure failure in this hobby but it's hard to qualify and quantify success, much less attribute it to any one product or methodology.
There's a product available from plant nurseries called "PEI Mussel Mud". It's a marine clay that's used for planting water lilies in. I had a friend of mine send some estuary mud from a mussel bed in Nova Scotia, but it had wood debris in it and was a little too buoyant. One of Leng Sy's claims was that the slight buoyancy of his mud increased the boundary layer (the interface where water meets the media). You would lose this feature if you used it as a lower substrate below sand. You would still have the miraculous elements available to the algae, but the roots of macroalgae are simple holdfasts that keep it anchored to the bottom. Macro algae does not obtain nutrients through a root mass, it is absorbed through the blades (leaves).
The concerns most people have/had with miracles mud is the possibility of sub-miraculous heavy metals and nutrients bound in the mud. It is a substance collected from nature, so it cannot be completely homogenous. In the case of mussels, they thrive in nitrogen-rich high nutrient water so I wouldn't try the water lily product I mentioned above, nor do I infer that it is the same stuff.
Reef keeping is more science, less miracle. Miracle Mud has had 15 years to produce a bioassay stating what it contains and why we need it. Deep sand beds have their proponents and opponents but both sides bring some scientific proof to the table, and at worst sand beds are redundant/superfluous.
Stephen Spotte put it best with the forward in one of his aquarium books. "The successful maintenance of a seawater aquarium is mostly witchcraft mixed with a little science. In this book I have attempted to describe the science, but with the realization that understanding the witchcraft might be more useful."
It's easy to measure failure in this hobby but it's hard to qualify and quantify success, much less attribute it to any one product or methodology.
There's a product available from plant nurseries called "PEI Mussel Mud". It's a marine clay that's used for planting water lilies in. I had a friend of mine send some estuary mud from a mussel bed in Nova Scotia, but it had wood debris in it and was a little too buoyant. One of Leng Sy's claims was that the slight buoyancy of his mud increased the boundary layer (the interface where water meets the media). You would lose this feature if you used it as a lower substrate below sand. You would still have the miraculous elements available to the algae, but the roots of macroalgae are simple holdfasts that keep it anchored to the bottom. Macro algae does not obtain nutrients through a root mass, it is absorbed through the blades (leaves).
The concerns most people have/had with miracles mud is the possibility of sub-miraculous heavy metals and nutrients bound in the mud. It is a substance collected from nature, so it cannot be completely homogenous. In the case of mussels, they thrive in nitrogen-rich high nutrient water so I wouldn't try the water lily product I mentioned above, nor do I infer that it is the same stuff.
Reef keeping is more science, less miracle. Miracle Mud has had 15 years to produce a bioassay stating what it contains and why we need it. Deep sand beds have their proponents and opponents but both sides bring some scientific proof to the table, and at worst sand beds are redundant/superfluous.
Stephen Spotte put it best with the forward in one of his aquarium books. "The successful maintenance of a seawater aquarium is mostly witchcraft mixed with a little science. In this book I have attempted to describe the science, but with the realization that understanding the witchcraft might be more useful."
Padrino
New member
You might want to poll this question about having a deep sand bed in the DT. personally i don't like the look especially after a few months you can see the denitrification between the sand bed and the glass. I think RDSB is probably a better option especially if you are putting it all the way through the mars systems
just my 2 cents
nineball
Active member
Sorry I was not planning a deep sand bed in the display tank, in fact the current plan is for a shallow bed. The references I was making for the deep sand bed is the remote bucket/bin/barrel as noted earlier in this thread.
Peter
nineball
Active member
Thank you sir this is very helpful. Chingchai uses miracle mud and swears by it. His water volume is not far off mine so I think I will use it to hopefully achieve the same result. I would not combine it with the RDSB and playsand as I suspect they would not play well together in the same pot.......Chingchai does have some leafy green plant material on the miracle mud platform but it is the leaves not the roots that are relevant as you have pointed out.
I am very tempted to look seriously at the Dialyseas. Have you come across it and would you berate me for getting it???? It seems to be a very comprehensive piece of equipment. I am somewhat ambiguous about the frequency and volume of water changes and this sort of takes care of things continuously. I do know that I want to achieve about 170 gal water change a week and this machine can certainly handle it, I think.
Thoughts??
Peter
Peter, I also believe from reading a few articles and talking with people that have been using the Miracle Mud for a while is that it needs changing out from time to time and you don't want to do it all at once. You do like half and six months later do the other half.
Your build is coming along nicely and I am glad to see someone actually planning everything out before they build.
Eric
Your build is coming along nicely and I am glad to see someone actually planning everything out before they build.
Eric
Rybren
Well-known member
Peter,
Here is a link to a review of the Dialyseas unit.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-04/pr/index.php
Hope this helps.
Jerry
Here is a link to a review of the Dialyseas unit.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-04/pr/index.php
Hope this helps.
Jerry
danielcherian
New member
Peter,
If I am remembering correctly, the article Jerry posted concluded that the Dialyseas is just an elaborate water change device since it doesn't do a perfect job of removing NH3 and NO3. While it's true that the Dialyseas will require a lot less space and is mostly automated, I think you're better off without it.
Instead of putting your trust behind the Dialyseas probes which may become defective, you can manually check the parameters of the water change. For example, before I replace my tank's water, I'll typically check the Salinity, Ca, Alk, and Mg of the makeup water before I add it to my tank. Obviously manual w/c are not automatic, but you'll have better control over the water you're putting in/removing from your aquarium. Also, you're employing other means of breaking down wastes (your RDSB, skimmer, etc).
Checking the quality of your replacement water should not be overly difficult, even for you.
Save the $4k for a pair of gem tangs.
If I am remembering correctly, the article Jerry posted concluded that the Dialyseas is just an elaborate water change device since it doesn't do a perfect job of removing NH3 and NO3. While it's true that the Dialyseas will require a lot less space and is mostly automated, I think you're better off without it.
Instead of putting your trust behind the Dialyseas probes which may become defective, you can manually check the parameters of the water change. For example, before I replace my tank's water, I'll typically check the Salinity, Ca, Alk, and Mg of the makeup water before I add it to my tank. Obviously manual w/c are not automatic, but you'll have better control over the water you're putting in/removing from your aquarium. Also, you're employing other means of breaking down wastes (your RDSB, skimmer, etc).
Checking the quality of your replacement water should not be overly difficult, even for you.
Save the $4k for a pair of gem tangs.
Padrino
New member
Personally you should ask someone that has been using one for over 2 years, paul Brun
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-12/totm/index.php
He answers questions on RC that i had regarding the unit 2 months ago. If i could afford one, i would own one. It just helps keep up with the maintenance and upkeep. You can go away on vacation and not worry about you not being home to complete a water change. Send Paul a PM and im sure hell answer all your questions.
Daniel,
I might agree with you for a smaller tank but with a display tank of 1450gallons plus the sump and mars systems the water changes would be rather large and having an automated system even though it is expensive could be very helpful
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-12/totm/index.php
He answers questions on RC that i had regarding the unit 2 months ago. If i could afford one, i would own one. It just helps keep up with the maintenance and upkeep. You can go away on vacation and not worry about you not being home to complete a water change. Send Paul a PM and im sure hell answer all your questions.
Daniel,
I might agree with you for a smaller tank but with a display tank of 1450gallons plus the sump and mars systems the water changes would be rather large and having an automated system even though it is expensive could be very helpful
Posidion
Coral Gardner
to add to this statement the use of the dialiseas unit does not prohibit an occasonal manual change but it will in my opinion reduce the required manual labor involved. Do i think this unit will make or break the sucess of this endevor, no absolutely not. I do think it may allow more time to dedicate to other areas like cleaning that closed loop plumbing as well as contributing to the enjoyment of the tank. while i love this hobby and do like the hands wet it is nice to just kick back and enjoy what you have created and not be thinking "while im staring at this fish buzzing around that rock i should have done a water change". JMO.
Also redundancy in this hobby has never hurt me Idont think. So on with the RDSB and the witch craft mud. if one dont get the other will right?
Rybren
Well-known member
Besides the Dialyseas, there are other options such as dual-head pumps for more or less continuous water changes. I know that Randy Holmes Farley is proponent. He discusses them here...
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php
iluzhun
New member
Peter I think what you are looking for is what is known in the computer world as an EPO or emergency power off switch. Also known as the rewrite your resume switch. This would be quite easy to set up since you are setting up a sepperate panel for the aquarium. If you have any questions regarding this or anything regarding the generator feel free to PM me as these are my specialty as I was a service tech for over 10 years.
Chris
slief
RC Sponsor
I was looking at those Dialyseas units recently. They look and appear to be a pretty intriguing option.
That said, between my Apex managing my top offs and my litermeter 3 managing my water changes to the tune of 3.7G a day (right now), I feel that if you have a good RODI as well well as holding and mixing tanks, the controller and something like a litermeter 3 or similar, its a better option that lends for more flexibility as well as remote management. I can see exactly what is going on with my tank from anywhere. Turn things on and off. Get emails etc. I know how many AMPS I am drawing, outlet status, lights, conductivity, PH, ORP, temp etc. I can compensate for low or high salinity by automatically adding fresh or salt water. Compensate for water that the skimmer removes by having the litermeter add a bit more each day than it takes out. The list goes on and on and by the time you get setup with a great controller and everything you need to manage the system, its still less than a proprietary Dialyseas unit and you put it together yourself so you know its ins and outs. Just my 2 cents on the Dialyseas.
Keep the pics coming. You tank is going to be spectacular!
That said, between my Apex managing my top offs and my litermeter 3 managing my water changes to the tune of 3.7G a day (right now), I feel that if you have a good RODI as well well as holding and mixing tanks, the controller and something like a litermeter 3 or similar, its a better option that lends for more flexibility as well as remote management. I can see exactly what is going on with my tank from anywhere. Turn things on and off. Get emails etc. I know how many AMPS I am drawing, outlet status, lights, conductivity, PH, ORP, temp etc. I can compensate for low or high salinity by automatically adding fresh or salt water. Compensate for water that the skimmer removes by having the litermeter add a bit more each day than it takes out. The list goes on and on and by the time you get setup with a great controller and everything you need to manage the system, its still less than a proprietary Dialyseas unit and you put it together yourself so you know its ins and outs. Just my 2 cents on the Dialyseas.
Keep the pics coming. You tank is going to be spectacular!
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
As far as water changes go, you would be wise to have a tank of fresh saltwater prepared all the time, with another one in the on-deck circle. Use a slow constant feed/drip and allow the effluent water from your reef system to overflow into your mars bars. Just make sure you are monitoring the salinity.
Look up Randy Holmes Farley's daily water change formula and you will see that a small daily or constant water change is almost as efficient as doing a larger weekly or monthly exchange.
Look up Randy Holmes Farley's daily water change formula and you will see that a small daily or constant water change is almost as efficient as doing a larger weekly or monthly exchange.
Rickyrooz1
Acropora Nut
Following along
PauChi
New member
The Dialyseas unit is very intriguing and for the size of your tank it would make more sense to invest in a unit like this ... I would if I could. It also checks on a wide range of the water spectrum as well as cleaning out all the impurities.
I'm really glad that you started this Big "mess" & oh ... a Big Thank You (Peter) to you eh? ... I've never witness so many "bright ideas" being introduced ... (I hardly spend too much time reading all reef forums as a matter of fact).
So many smart reefers ... so many resources alike!!! Awesome ... :bounce1:
Paul
I'm really glad that you started this Big "mess" & oh ... a Big Thank You (Peter) to you eh? ... I've never witness so many "bright ideas" being introduced ... (I hardly spend too much time reading all reef forums as a matter of fact).
So many smart reefers ... so many resources alike!!! Awesome ... :bounce1:
Paul
Last edited:
danielcherian
New member
Paul,
The Dialyseas only has a pH and Conductivity probe (orp). Since both of those probes are available to hobbyists, couldn't the hobbyist perform the same tasks as the Dialyseas?
As far as its filtration capabilities go, I believe the article posted earlier suggested that the Dialyseas depletes calcium very readily and does not do much in cleaning out impurities (since the average reef usually has other means of removing/exporting ammonia and other wastes; ex: live rock, live sand, RDSB, skimmer, and w/c).
As another post mentioned, a Litermiter could be readily configured to perform an automatic w/c. Of course, you might need more than one unit, but wouldn't that eliminate the other reason for getting a Dialyseas (it's automation)?
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