Coral Tank from Canada (1350gal Display Tank)

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Some aspect of it's (limited) use, hhmmm so what's the Pros vs. Cons I'd like to know .... :hammer:

" "¢ Monitors salinity via a standard conductivity probe.
"¢ Monitors pH via a standard pH probe.
"¢ Monitors ORP via a standard ORP probe.
"¢ Monitors the sump's water level and adds top-off water as necessary. (The Dialyseas unit normally adds RO/DI water for top-off. I feed this RO/DI water line into an electronically actuated three-way solenoid valve that splits the RO/DI flow between the sump and a Nilsen (Ca(OH)2) reactor. The solenoid is controlled by an Aquacontroller, and is responsive to the tank's pH. If the tank's pH is > 8.4, the RO/DI top-off water goes directly into the sump. If the tank's pH is < 8.4, the RO/DI Dialyseas output is used as the Nilsen reactor's input, and Ca(OH)2 solution is infused into the sump instead.)
"¢ Dialyzes aquarium water at the rate of 1 gpd, or about 18% of the system's total water volume per month (for the reasoning behind my choice of this value, and for a convenient way to calculate your system's water volume, read on!)
"¢ Adds concentrated salt solution to replenish salt removed by dialysis. This function is THE single critical feature that defines success or failure for the whole Dialyseas concept. Questions of salt quality, the feasibility (or not) of maintaining a reasonable salt composition in a "concentrated salt solution," and salt solution delivery mechanics all come into play when analyzing the Dialyseas' performance on this pivotal point, as discussed in detail below."


Paul
 
I'm not sure why there is any question whether this product is a good product. I think anyone that owns one will tell you its great. I think what Daniel is arguing is its not worth the cost of the unit and that most people could do what its doing and save some money.

From what I've read, i don't think cost is an issue here. If your going all out, why cut yourself short.

Peter,
My controller has saved me more than once. I think many of us would agree that the more fail safes and redundancies the better. Also having automation will take some stress off you. If you have to do everything it will seem like a chore and you will not be able to enjoy the hobby. Having automation is good. If you want to perform your own manual water change or whatever, you still can.
 
I'm not sure why there is any question whether this product is a good product. I think anyone that owns one will tell you its great. I think what Daniel is arguing is its not worth the cost of the unit and that most people could do what its doing and save some money.

From what I've read, i don't think cost is an issue here. If your going all out, why cut yourself short.

Well ... it's basically a question of "Getting To Know" for majority of reef enthusiasts out there who doesn't own or can't afford a Dialyseas unit. Understand that it's a very good equipment but how many of us really know or understand how it really works or function. Furthermore my intention wasn't to dispute what Daniel has to say ... just to highlight the usage of the intended item.

Paul
 
The Dialyseas unit is very intriguing and for the size of your tank it would make more sense to invest in a unit like this ... I would if I could. It also checks on a wide range of the water spectrum as well as cleaning out all the impurities.

I'm really glad that you started this Big "mess" & oh ... a Big Thank You (Peter) to you eh? ... I've never witness so many "bright ideas" being introduced ... (I hardly spend too much time reading all reef forums as a matter of fact).

So many smart reefers ... so many resources alike!!! Awesome ... :bounce1:

Paul

Thank you Paul......You are right, whatever brought this group together resulted in some very bright capable minds that we are privileged to work with on this thread.

I sure do have a lot of work ahead of me........automated systems or not.

Peter
 
Some aspect of it's (limited) use, hhmmm so what's the Pros vs. Cons I'd like to know .... :hammer:

" "¢ Monitors salinity via a standard conductivity probe.
"¢ Monitors pH via a standard pH probe.
"¢ Monitors ORP via a standard ORP probe.
"¢ Monitors the sump's water level and adds top-off water as necessary. (The Dialyseas unit normally adds RO/DI water for top-off. I feed this RO/DI water line into an electronically actuated three-way solenoid valve that splits the RO/DI flow between the sump and a Nilsen (Ca(OH)2) reactor. The solenoid is controlled by an Aquacontroller, and is responsive to the tank's pH. If the tank's pH is > 8.4, the RO/DI top-off water goes directly into the sump. If the tank's pH is < 8.4, the RO/DI Dialyseas output is used as the Nilsen reactor's input, and Ca(OH)2 solution is infused into the sump instead.)
"¢ Dialyzes aquarium water at the rate of 1 gpd, or about 18% of the system's total water volume per month (for the reasoning behind my choice of this value, and for a convenient way to calculate your system's water volume, read on!)
"¢ Adds concentrated salt solution to replenish salt removed by dialysis. This function is THE single critical feature that defines success or failure for the whole Dialyseas concept. Questions of salt quality, the feasibility (or not) of maintaining a reasonable salt composition in a "concentrated salt solution," and salt solution delivery mechanics all come into play when analyzing the Dialyseas' performance on this pivotal point, as discussed in detail below."


Paul

I assume you are listing the above points as pros?

The unit does not appear to be a controller by your description. It is only capable of monitoring (not controlling) PH. It does not activate any device to raise or lower the PH value as needed. I see the author has incorporated a separate controller and Nilson reactor (used for mixing RO/DI source water with calcium hydroxide to raise the calcium level and PH). These are all features that run independent of the Dailyseas unit and appear to only use the product RO/DI water line from the unit. A Nilsen reactor will raise the PH quickly if it isn't set-up properly, but it isn't a device one would use specifically to raise PH, as it would do so for only a short period of time and add a disproportionate amount of calcium in doing so. Sodium carbonate would be a safer way to raise PH, but once again it must be buffered with sodium bicarbonate (which will lower PH), calcium and magnesium to maintain an ionic balance.

The unit monitors (not controls) salinity, but likely adds the stock solution according to the volume of water processed, rather than the actual values of each individual salt in your water. It monitors ORP, but unlike a controller, it doesn't govern an ozone generator capable of raising it. It's capable of topping off the sump but I doubt it has the many fail safes of a dedicated top-off system such as low and high float switches (electronic), absolute fail safe float valve (mechanical), RO/DI shut-off solenoid, and a reservoir to limit available water. Any and all of these parameters should be dealt with by an aquarium controller, not a set of tack on probes and simple monitors. It's like cable tying a Ph monitor to a light fixture and selling it as a water quality management device.

According to the authors numbers, 18% of the water gets partially filtered and supplemented per month. Alternatively, an 18% water change would remove 100% of the "bad stuff" and 100% restore 18% of the water to proper levels. What the unit does and does not remove is vague from what I have read. It doesn't appear to remove secondary metabolites for example. These are the toxic chemicals that stunt the growth of corals and in some cases cause necrosis and or mortality. Secondary metabolites are chemical agents that corals and algae release into surrounding water in order to compete for space on the reef, a process called allelopathy or "chemical warfare" as some people call it. In the open sea these allelopathic toxins are quickly diluted, only effecting neighbouring corals, but in a closed reef system these harmful chemicals can linger for quite some time. They can be removed through ozonation, UV irradiation, ion exchange resin, polymeric absorbent, protein skimming, activated carbon, and of course the good old fashioned water change.

Modern filtration methods have made water changes a lot less necessary than they were in the past. Now that phosphate binding media is fast, cheap and effective, we don't need to change water to remove phosphate. Well designed refugia further reduce phosphate and nitrate. Sand beds, denitrators and carbon dosing also contribute to the point where water changes are not implemented for nutrient export.

Before we look at how to change the water, we need to decide why we are doing it in the first place. What are we taking out and what are we putting back in? In some case it may not be necessary to do regular water changes, but if you are adding chemicals to buffer the various water parameters you are adding extra ions that don't find a "partner". A buildup of these extra ions (free radicals) causes ion antagonism as the left-over ions such as sodium and chloride wreak havoc with chemical interactions. Water changes provide a level playing field as the water is restored in an ionically balanced fashion.

The other reason for water changes is to remove the "unknowns". Personally, I don't think there are any unknowns. There are heavy metals that accumulate through nutrient import (feeding), and the secondary metabolites that I mentioned above. Other than that, the unknowns are completely... well unknown to me.

I honestly don't know much about what a Dailyseas unit removes, but it may remove some "good stuff". There are probiotics in the water that feed corals and consume excess nutrients (bacteria/microbes). The Dailyseas unit may directly remove these if they are large enough or indirectly remove them if they are attached to particles too large to pass through the membrane.

I don't think the opponents of the Dailyseas unit are focusing solely on the cost. Water changes are just far more efficient and simple. If water changes were truly challenging then such a device would have merit, but that simply isn't the case. There are many ways of implementing an automated water change system. Personally, I like to do it manually as automated systems don't vacuum the substrate or flush out detritus from rock work; getting in there and removing detritus as the primary goal and taking with it water as a secondary benefit. There is a lot more "bad stuff" (TOC/total organic carbon) in particulate matter (POC/particulate organic carbon) than there is dissolved in waste water (DOC/dissolved organic matter).

Stating that the Dailyseas unit replaces the salts it removes is an over simplification of the chemical process that goes on in our reef tanks. Every time one adds calcium in the form of calcium carbonate, calcium chloride, calcium hydroxide, or calcium gluconate, the buffer system is effected. In some imbalanced reef tanks it's a constant battle of adding carbonates (sodium carbonate & sodium bicarbonate) to raise the carbonate hardness (DKH) only to have it fall out of solution and precipitate (snow) or drive down the calcium level. The ionic balance of a reef tank can be put partially in check with water changes, but a Dailyseas unit only handles part of the "problem", at a greater cost, using more resources, and with fewer fail safes.
 
. Personally, I like to do it manually as automated systems don't vacuum the substrate or flush out detritus from rock work; getting in there and removing detritus as the primary goal and taking with it water as a secondary benefit. There is a lot more "bad stuff" (TOC/total organic carbon) in particulate matter (POC/particulate organic carbon) than there is dissolved in waste water (DOC/dissolved organic matter).
.

I agree with you 100 per cent Mr. Wilson. My client's tanks that have consistent weekly water changes, that I do manually, seem to thrive the best, have the stabilist water chemistry and the least nitrate and phosphate problems.
 
Brief intermission...........

Brief intermission...........

Here are some things I have learned at this point in our journey.............

The good news::::there is a "TON' of wisdom on this thread.

The bad news::::::there is a 'TON' of wisdom on this thread.

I have been trying to read and digest all the links,referrals and straight out coaching that the group has recommended. It is a whole bunch of work! There doesn't seem to be an end to it.............but you already knew that.

I've been trying not only to learn enough to make an informed decision, I'm trying to figure out how to choose between two logical, cogent and sincere positions that all to often contradict each other.

A disease that I have observed in this hobby that is not covered in any of the aquarium books is analysis paralysis. Its a mind numbing disease that makes the infected individual totally incapable of making a decision. I honestly have tried to read the white papers, the specialized web sites, the research papers, the links within the research papers and I can say without a doubt I am better informed because of your efforts to help me with each passing day. I can't help the growing conviction that somewhere before the end of this process that one of you is going to step forward and give me an honourary doctorate in marine biology. Ether that or I will have earned an honourary degree in advanced pharmacology!!!!

I have also learned that lobster is cheaper than live rock! I have also learned that Live Rock only flies first class!!!!

I have learned that 'stuff' in this hobby does NOT travel at the speed of light, unless its an algae bloom or a pregnant red bug.

I've learned that the people that are truly successful in this domain are to be respected and are far, far too rare.

I've also learned that true veterans that have either experienced catastrophic failure or just plain burnout absolutely deserve our respect for teaching the rest of us so much at such high cost to themselves.

I've observed that the primary fuel for this hobby is passionate enthusiasm.

I've also observed that the greatest single contribution to failure in the aquarium is too much passionate enthusiasm.

I've learned that patience without discipline leads to catatonic inertia. We have far too many good firefighters in this hobby. All to often, if there isn't an emergency to fight or correct we sit around not knowing what to do next and get into trouble cause we're bored!!!!

On those notes.......................Decisions next.

Peter
 
You may be less bewitched, bothered and bewildered with the knowledge that the rest of us are also in the dark. Be weary of people who claim to be completely successful in this hobby, and definitely don't believe their golf scores :) ...but as the saying goes, I'd rather be lucky than skilled.

You picked a good hobby. You won't get this level of debate on the gardening and compost forums. I wouldn't worry too much about getting everything exactly right the first time around, no one does... and it makes for good reading :)

Try to assure that your decisions leave options for changes in the future. Pumps and lighting are easy to upgrade, while the plumbing infrastructure is very difficult to change.

Stick with your decisions and see them through. It takes a while to establish if a technology or methodology truly works. A common mistake is to swap out protein skimmers and pumps two or three times, while the root of the problem lies elsewhere in biology, not technology.

There are a number of devices out there that aren't necessary, but very few of them are detrimental. Some people opt to set-up concurrent methods, then one by one discontinue them in the hopes of isolating which ones are of greatest value. The difficulty lies in the wild card that nature deals us.

It's almost impossible to attribute success to any one method or device. It's like the old pint of beer & penicillin treatment. The combination of the two cures the infection every time. I can site articles that prove beer isn't a catalyst to a miracle cure, but I'm not about to talk you out of having one :)
 
Here are some things I have learned at this point in our journey.............

The good news::::there is a "TON' of wisdom on this thread.

The bad news::::::there is a 'TON' of wisdom on this thread.

I have been trying to read and digest all the links,referrals and straight out coaching that the group has recommended. It is a whole bunch of work! There doesn't seem to be an end to it.............but you already knew that.

I've been trying not only to learn enough to make an informed decision, I'm trying to figure out how to choose between two logical, cogent and sincere positions that all to often contradict each other.

A disease that I have observed in this hobby that is not covered in any of the aquarium books is analysis paralysis. Its a mind numbing disease that makes the infected individual totally incapable of making a decision. I honestly have tried to read the white papers, the specialized web sites, the research papers, the links within the research papers and I can say without a doubt I am better informed because of your efforts to help me with each passing day. I can't help the growing conviction that somewhere before the end of this process that one of you is going to step forward and give me an honourary doctorate in marine biology. Ether that or I will have earned an honourary degree in advanced pharmacology!!!!

I have also learned that lobster is cheaper than live rock! I have also learned that Live Rock only flies first class!!!!

I have learned that 'stuff' in this hobby does NOT travel at the speed of light, unless its an algae bloom or a pregnant red bug.

I've learned that the people that are truly successful in this domain are to be respected and are far, far too rare.

I've also learned that true veterans that have either experienced catastrophic failure or just plain burnout absolutely deserve our respect for teaching the rest of us so much at such high cost to themselves.

I've observed that the primary fuel for this hobby is passionate enthusiasm.

I've also observed that the greatest single contribution to failure in the aquarium is too much passionate enthusiasm.

I've learned that patience without discipline leads to catatonic inertia. We have far too many good firefighters in this hobby. All to often, if there isn't an emergency to fight or correct we sit around not knowing what to do next and get into trouble cause we're bored!!!!

On those notes.......................Decisions next.

Peter

Peter,
you must be a GM or corporate executive. You never answer questions directly and are fantastic at diverting questions and morphing subjects. You remind me of my General manager
 
You picked a good hobby. You won't get this level of debate on the gardening and compost forums. I wouldn't worry too much about getting everything exactly right the first time around, no one does... and it makes for good reading :)

I agree, I guarantee that once you get the tank set up you will be changing the flow and adding power heads in different areas. Once corals are in place, you will see how they react and depending if you take the advice about pre-drilling the liverock then you can move corals quickly and safely otherwise you will be moving pumps and adjusting flow properties. Either way you can't get away from it. It is probably one of the most challenging aspects but when you get it right its very rewarding!
 
I assume you are listing the above points as pros?

The unit does not appear to be a controller by your description. It is only capable of monitoring (not controlling) PH. It does not activate any device to raise or lower the PH value as needed. I see the author has incorporated a separate controller and Nilson reactor (used for mixing RO/DI source water with calcium hydroxide to raise the calcium level and PH). These are all features that run independent of the Dailyseas unit and appear to only use the product RO/DI water line from the unit. A Nilsen reactor will raise the PH quickly if it isn't set-up properly, but it isn't a device one would use specifically to raise PH, as it would do so for only a short period of time and add a disproportionate amount of calcium in doing so. Sodium carbonate would be a safer way to raise PH, but once again it must be buffered with sodium bicarbonate (which will lower PH), calcium and magnesium to maintain an ionic balance.

The unit monitors (not controls) salinity, but likely adds the stock solution according to the volume of water processed, rather than the actual values of each individual salt in your water. It monitors ORP, but unlike a controller, it doesn't govern an ozone generator capable of raising it. It's capable of topping off the sump but I doubt it has the many fail safes of a dedicated top-off system such as low and high float switches (electronic), absolute fail safe float valve (mechanical), RO/DI shut-off solenoid, and a reservoir to limit available water. Any and all of these parameters should be dealt with by an aquarium controller, not a set of tack on probes and simple monitors. It's like cable tying a Ph monitor to a light fixture and selling it as a water quality management device.

According to the authors numbers, 18% of the water gets partially filtered and supplemented per month. Alternatively, an 18% water change would remove 100% of the "bad stuff" and 100% restore 18% of the water to proper levels. What the unit does and does not remove is vague from what I have read. It doesn't appear to remove secondary metabolites for example. These are the toxic chemicals that stunt the growth of corals and in some cases cause necrosis and or mortality. Secondary metabolites are chemical agents that corals and algae release into surrounding water in order to compete for space on the reef, a process called allelopathy or "chemical warfare" as some people call it. In the open sea these allelopathic toxins are quickly diluted, only effecting neighbouring corals, but in a closed reef system these harmful chemicals can linger for quite some time. They can be removed through ozonation, UV irradiation, ion exchange resin, polymeric absorbent, protein skimming, activated carbon, and of course the good old fashioned water change.

Modern filtration methods have made water changes a lot less necessary than they were in the past. Now that phosphate binding media is fast, cheap and effective, we don't need to change water to remove phosphate. Well designed refugia further reduce phosphate and nitrate. Sand beds, denitrators and carbon dosing also contribute to the point where water changes are not implemented for nutrient export.

Before we look at how to change the water, we need to decide why we are doing it in the first place. What are we taking out and what are we putting back in? In some case it may not be necessary to do regular water changes, but if you are adding chemicals to buffer the various water parameters you are adding extra ions that don't find a "partner". A buildup of these extra ions (free radicals) causes ion antagonism as the left-over ions such as sodium and chloride wreak havoc with chemical interactions. Water changes provide a level playing field as the water is restored in an ionically balanced fashion.

The other reason for water changes is to remove the "unknowns". Personally, I don't think there are any unknowns. There are heavy metals that accumulate through nutrient import (feeding), and the secondary metabolites that I mentioned above. Other than that, the unknowns are completely... well unknown to me.

I honestly don't know much about what a Dailyseas unit removes, but it may remove some "good stuff". There are probiotics in the water that feed corals and consume excess nutrients (bacteria/microbes). The Dailyseas unit may directly remove these if they are large enough or indirectly remove them if they are attached to particles too large to pass through the membrane.

I don't think the opponents of the Dailyseas unit are focusing solely on the cost. Water changes are just far more efficient and simple. If water changes were truly challenging then such a device would have merit, but that simply isn't the case. There are many ways of implementing an automated water change system. Personally, I like to do it manually as automated systems don't vacuum the substrate or flush out detritus from rock work; getting in there and removing detritus as the primary goal and taking with it water as a secondary benefit. There is a lot more "bad stuff" (TOC/total organic carbon) in particulate matter (POC/particulate organic carbon) than there is dissolved in waste water (DOC/dissolved organic matter).

Stating that the Dailyseas unit replaces the salts it removes is an over simplification of the chemical process that goes on in our reef tanks. Every time one adds calcium in the form of calcium carbonate, calcium chloride, calcium hydroxide, or calcium gluconate, the buffer system is effected. In some imbalanced reef tanks it's a constant battle of adding carbonates (sodium carbonate & sodium bicarbonate) to raise the carbonate hardness (DKH) only to have it fall out of solution and precipitate (snow) or drive down the calcium level. The ionic balance of a reef tank can be put partially in check with water changes, but a Dailyseas unit only handles part of the "problem", at a greater cost, using more resources, and with fewer fail safes.

Mr. Wilson, I cannot tell you how completely appreciative I am and I know this group would agree that we very much value the time you take to dissect these issues to our benefit. I am privileged sir to have you as part of our citizenry.

One of the decisions I have taken after the examination of this subject in fair detail that does not seem out of favour with the distillation of your observations here, is to delay further contemplation of the Dialyseas product for immediate deployment.

As others have noted, and not too delicately I might add, I do not have a sufficiently strong baseline of experience to properly asses the effectiveness and efficiency of the technology. Its not that this design is inappropriate, its my ability to judge it properly in this setting. I have concluded that I might have the best of both worlds. I have already designed a water change capability that will allow me to have 210 gal of prepared SW on-stand by and 210 gal of SW for weekly water changes. I have concluded, based on clear evidence taken from Chingchai's experience as well as other large closely managed environments that significant water changes do more good than harm. I have also observed that if I need help and coaching there is a huge practical base of experience I can call on where the Dialyseas product experience is still limited at best.

Having said all of that I am still not prevented from returning to this technology when I have sufficient stability and balance in the fish room/ display tank ecosystem. I plan to examine all systems in play and planned over the first year with an eye to establishing best practices including measures to optimize the required energy in managing the whole system. I anticipate having a baseline of information that I can use to support a proper trial of the Dialyseas product.

The indecision on the Dialyseas unit was preventing the final blueprints from being completed for the fish room so this course will help pick up the pace.

More decisions next...........

Peter
 
I agree, I guarantee that once you get the tank set up you will be changing the flow and adding power heads in different areas. Once corals are in place, you will see how they react and depending if you take the advice about pre-drilling the liverock then you can move corals quickly and safely otherwise you will be moving pumps and adjusting flow properties. Either way you can't get away from it. It is probably one of the most challenging aspects but when you get it right its very rewarding!

Thanks Padrino, sounds like a plan.........I have my heavy gloves and my masonary bit at the ready.

Peter
 
there is so much info in this thread to consider but don't skip the little things like pre drilling the rock. these are the minor things that are overlooked most of the time and later regretted. i wish someone told me to pre drill my rock =(
 
there is so much info in this thread to consider but don't skip the little things like pre drilling the rock. these are the minor things that are overlooked most of the time and later regretted. i wish someone told me to pre drill my rock =(

+1 to that. I'm stuck using the epoxy, although I will say that it does a fair job in my tank...of course you could fit something like 20 of my tanks into this one no problem, so the massive quantity of this stuff would have your hands smelling wonderfully for weeks. Your wife might suggest you try out your lovely guest rooms for a while until that wears off.

Pete, something that I don't think can be iterated enough is that there is not one winning formula to creating a successful reef tank, and it definitely is not correlated directly with $$$. There are common sense things, like raising pH to 10.5 (doh!) because you ran your kalk reactor on a timer and dosing pump instead of a controller is a bad thing (personal experience...breaks my heart still to look at pics of what that tank was becoming.) GFCI units should always be used when dealing with water and electricity. etc. etc. There are a lot of other things that will be debated, and you'll find any number of successful combinations (how long do I run my lights, should I supplement with actinic, t-5 vs. LED vs. MH, what size skimmer or do I need one at all, how many pounds of LR per gallon) and you'll find people with widely divergent answers, and only one thing in common...good results. One thing that I think I can say HAS to be done, is that when you attempt to automate anything, a failsafe should be in place...preferably as many as possible. Automation is great, but when you look at a majority of catastrophic tank crashes, something I notice (as with my kalkwasser accident) is that it is automation mis-applied or that dang Murphy with his rule showing up. I might also add that my kalkwasser reactor had been running for 6 months with absolutely no problem...which led to a false sense of security, and made switching it onto a pH controller less of a priority. I really am glad to see you disclosing everything, so that the collective can read, and identify any possible issues from our knowledge and experience so that in your tank, you can avoid some of these unseen gremlins that are often missed when thinking from a purely hypothetical standpoint.
 
Back to your DSB location, you can always fill the bottom 2/3 of your overflow boxes with sand. I'm assuming you are using an 80-90% siphon drain with a 10-20% durso/aspirated drain to pick up the slack. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1310585

It may not be big enough for your system, but it's a good use of dead space. I use perforated PVC tubes imbedded in the sand to increase the barrier layer (more sand/water interface/surface area) and to allow access for carbon source dosing, solid vodka media, and sulphur media replacement. A heater or air line could also be placed in the tubes for passive flow around the sand.
 
Here is a photo of a tank with 15 gallons of sand in the overflow. You can see one of the "breathing tubes" at the top. Sorry, the picture is a little dark, but the overflow is on the right hand side (48" tall).
 

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