Peter, I have been tagging along from the beginning and I am amazed everytime i come back to this thread to see how things are going.
Keep up the great work !!!!
^^^ I'm in :dance:
Keep up the great work !!!!
^^^ I'm in :dance:
Coral Tank from Canada (1350gal Display Tank)
- Thread starter nineball
- Start date
- Status
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
If you are talking about LCD glass, there's usually someone at IIDEX/Neocon with that stuff. It isn't cheap though. http://www.iidexneocon.com/2010/
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
The benefit of OceanClear or NuClear canisters is they are clear. The Pool canisters such as Jacuzzi & Pentair hide the dirt under the carpet. In addition to this visual cue, you also have the trusty pressure gauge to rely on. The operating pressure should be somewhere around 5 PSI. Once the pressure gauge reads 8 or 10 you know the cartridge is restricted/dirty. After you get to know your system, you will find it takes a certain number of days to plug-up.
The greater issue at hand is exporting the collected detritus before it breaks down physically or biologically as water passes through it. Ideally you would clean the cartridge once a week, but you may be able to stretch it out to a month without feeding the nitrogen cycle (build-up of residual nitrate).
Th easier it is to shut off the valves, screw off the lid and swap the cartridge for a clean one, the more likely you are to do it. When you have to lie down under the tank, spill water all over the place, and spend 10 minutes rinsing it out, you will avoid the task at all tasks. This is where the clear models guilt you into cleaning it
You never mentioned your plan with regards to chemical media (ion exchange resins, polymers, carbon, or phosphate removers). Your cartridge filter may have a core for holding such media. Alternatively, one cartridge filter could be for mechanical filtration while the other is dedicated to chemical filtration.
Aquarist007
New member
I'm in for 2 dozen.
Aquarist007
New member
not a problem--you are most deserving IMO.
After reading the posts I used an old rena3 with phosban and carbon cartridges. Plus the three filter pads that they sell as a trio on my 40 gal coral frag tank. What a difference in the clarity of the water of the water in two days.
I use the diatom filter too but only when there is a real problem in one of the tanks I look after--I think they take too much useful phyto out of the water.
In other cases I will use an old magnum with a water polishing filter, set it up one day on a tank and then come back two days later. The client is always amazed
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
The white, black, and red varieties of mangrove tree all occur in Florida and they are all appropriate for aquaria. The three varieties are fairly similar with only a few minor root system (breathing) and leave systems (salt expelling).
The ratio for a tank under 30 gallons should be 1 per gallon, and for larger tanks you can get away with one per two gallons. Peter will need to multiply his order of 60 x 10 if he wants to use it as a method of nutrient export.
There are a few mangrove tree farms in Florida. They can legally sell pods and trees over 3' tall, but anything in between is protected by Fish & Wildlife Services. The nursery trees are a 3' straight stick with about six leaves on the top. You have to look really close to tell the difference between the three colour varieties.
Starting with pods and varying the rooting depth will make a nice tangle of "legs/knees". Trimming the top to like a bonsai will manipulate growth hormones and cause the tree to send out new branches.
Each plant will grow one new leaf per month and the amount of nutrient uptake is similar to that of macro algae. You can dry the leaves and weigh them to compare the export yield to the dry weight of a month of Chaetomorpha or gracilaria growth which will be closer to a bucket full. The dry export weight of mangroves is not only less than macro algae, it also takes up a larger footprint and uses more resources (spraying and lighting). Macro algae also offer the added benefit of converting Co2 into O2 in the water. Macro algae refugia should be run on a reverse photoperiod to counter coral respiration at night so the PH doesn't drop. Mangrove tanks should be run on a daytime photoperiod so they can convert atmospheric Co2 into O2.
You have to remember that you are working with a closed system where the air in the room is independent of outside atmospheric air and the water in the tank doesn't have the massive expanse of the ocean to balance the Co2 and O2 levels. Co2 is carbonic acid and like any acid, it lowers the PH of the tank water, particularly at night when photosynthesis reverses the process and o2 is converted into Co2. A nightly PH drop from 8.2 to 7.8 is not uncommon, but a reverse photoperiod refugium full of macro algae will balance this out.
Aquarist007
New member
Other methods of keeping the pH higher can include:
make sure the surface of your tank is really churning---this is a major spot of gas exchange
make sure you have adequate flow 20-40 times the tank vol in gph is desirable.
remove glass covers of the tops of tanks as per the first reason mentioned
vent the skimmer to the outside atmosphere
install and outside vent in a fish room or open a window overnight if it has one****
run a refugium with plenty of cheato macro. If you run the lights in reverse of the display tank then it does reduce the nocturnal drop in pH as explained by Sean
Sean, back to mangroves. How effective would they be at reducing the nocturnal shift in pH?
Peter, I would consider doing this if it is not already planned. An outside vent will also help in heat dissipation
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
Mangroves, or any terrestrial plant for that matter, intake Co2 through the stomata pores on the underside of the leaves. This is a process that is carried out above the water, so it has no impact on the gas exchange in the system.
It would take a substantial number of mangroves to have a significant impact on the ambient air quality. Common house plants like Pathos and spider plants are boring but they are the most efficient at removing VOC's from the air. Gas exchange will be greater with a more substantial ficus tree or fast growing philodendron.
I view mangroves as primarily for aesthetics with some value as a microbial site. The little critters that grow on the mangrove can just as easily be grown on rock or eggcrate, but mangroves are more fun. If you want to look into alternative methods of nutrient export, sea grass is fast growing, efficient and equally as cool looking. There are some nice sea grass fish and inverts (Bangai Cardinals, pipefish, and filefish) and you get the water flow to make them sway. The catch is they are hard to find and don't transplant well as they need the long root system to be intact.
Aquarist007
New member
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
We'll give you a Mulligan on that one
It's an easy thing to overlook, like the common misconception that the roots (holdfast) of single celled algae draw in nutrients from the substrate. Sea grasses do however uptake nutrients through a root system just as terrestrial plants do. The practice of placing nutrient-rich mud under sand for the roots to "get nutrients" is erroneous. Macro-algae and mangroves are being implemented to reduce excess nutrients, so any efforts to "feed" them are counter productive. Black mangroves are unique in that they develop a "snorkel" system whereby the air roots become soft and spongy with pores to supply oxygen to the roots if they are growing in anaerobic (oxygen-poor) conditions.
dave.m
Active member
While we are waxing rhapsodic on filtration methods like mangroves and mechanical filters, I would like to ask about another type that hasn't been much discussed here yet: cryptic refugiums. I have read that, once developed, the sponges in a crypt can polish the water to such an extent that there is not even enough matter left in the water to keep a protein skimmer running.
What are the real-world experiences of those in this thread with crypts? Are they as potent as some would have us believe?
What are the downsides of crypts from personal experience that are not mentioned?
If cryptic refugiums are so good, why are they not part of this build?
Thx in advance for any input,
Dave.M
What are the real-world experiences of those in this thread with crypts? Are they as potent as some would have us believe?
What are the downsides of crypts from personal experience that are not mentioned?
If cryptic refugiums are so good, why are they not part of this build?
Thx in advance for any input,
Dave.M
khaosinc
The cyborg reefer
I like the cryptic zone in concept, though I don't know that mine is big and/or established enough to actually make any significant difference in my tank. Currently I have it set up as 1/3 of my 300 gallon sump. As that is less than 10% of my system volume I don't know how much of an effect it has. I do know all sorts of different color sponges as well as what I think is the start of a chili coral are growing in it. I figure it can't hurt much and it does entertain me.
PauChi
New member
Cryptic eh? I've read from somewhere that a certain Blue sponge was discovered to polish/filter the water very efficiently. Maybe Shawn or someone can explain about this?
Can't do too much reading ... I'm hit by my first allergic reaction to my right eye ... sore from rubbing !!
Paul
Can't do too much reading ... I'm hit by my first allergic reaction to my right eye ... sore from rubbing !!
Paul
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
For those who aren't familiar with it, cryptic, twilight, or benthic zones are areas in a reef where little or no light penetrates due to shadowing from corals and rock and shear depth as tiny particles in the water refract light. These areas are also low flow for more or less the same reasons.
The invertebrates that grow in cryptic zones have adapted to be opportunistic feeders, dining on excess nutrients such as nitrogen & phosphate, heavy metals, bacteria, free-floating algae and other junk from the illuminated reef above. Corals growing on the sunny side of the reef have adapted to utilize algae within their tissue to derive energy from carbohydrates (sugars) that their symbiotic algae partners (zooxanthellae) produce through photosynthesis. Cryptic inverts have adapted in a non-photosynthetic environment. To make up for the lack of free energy from the sun and algae, cryptic inverts have taken advantage of what they have a lot of, and that's a steady rain of garbage (detritus & nutrients) from the reef above.
Cryptic zones in aquariums don't need to be highly engineered as they occur naturally as a matter of course. Anywhere there is a dark area where algae won't grow, miraculously small cryptic inverts will appear like the guys selling $5.00 water at music festivals. These inverts include sponges, sea squirts (tunicates), fan/feather duster worms, serpulid/fire worms (look like sea earthworms and often sting like a cactus), bivalves (clams, scallops etc.), barnacles, and plankton. The areas you will find them in your tank are overflow boxes, sumps, in the substrate, and on the undersides of rock and coral in the display tank.
There is a saying that "nature doesn't like empty spaces". Wherever there is an excess of food, or available home, an opportunistic organism will find it and set up shop. When you feed your tank a good portion of that food goes right over the overflow box unless you have a system to shut down the pumps or a feeding station of some sort. Aiptasia and majano anemones are photosynthetic, but they are also active filter feeders and collect passing food with their handy tentacles so overflow boxes are a perfect environment for them. Filter feeders draw in water through their tissue and polish it by removing the nutrients, heavy metals, and organic carbon (TOC). The removal of these food items not only helps with he chemical composition of the water, it also improves water clarity which helps light penetrate as the yellow pigmented organics are removed.
We can replicate the natural balance of organisms that nature uses by providing more homes for cryptic inverts. In nature, the cryptic zone is exponentially larger than the illuminated reef. By spacing our live rock and adding structures to overflow boxes and sumps, we can make up for the chief growth limiting factor (real estate).
The key to cryptic filtration is location... location... location. I build eggcrate structures and place them in sumps below the refugium as a "Duplex System" for better use of space. The duplex term refers to the upper illuminated refugium and lower basement apartment for our cryptic friends. The network of eggcrate panels allow water to passively move through while providing a 360 degree surface for cryptic inverts to attach. I call these natural/biological filters "benthic zones" due to the replication of a substrate, rather than an underside of a reef rock like the cryptic zones that Steve Tyree has created. Tyree's systems are comprised of unique rock formations that allows for more shadowed areas. You can read more on his systems here. http://www.dynamicecomorphology.com/ and here http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1020248 and you can read more about similar benthic systems here. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=969713
Cryptic inverts get into your tank as hitchhikers on the dark side of live rock and corals. Some sponges and sea squirts (looks like a sponge but with two vents/mouths) are very colourful and can be bought as specific pieces. While the actual effectiveness of cryptic zones on water quality is hard to measure and separate from other filtration efforts, at the very least they offer a fascinating look at a different level of the natural reef ecosystem.
In theory and in specific scientific studies, sponges and other water polishing inverts have proven to be beneficial to water quality management, but feedback on how much impact they actually make on a reef tank are slow to come. Part of this issue is due to a lack of hype typically surrounding commercial products catering to the niche market. In the case of protein skimmers, they have been proven to only remove 80% of available proteins and 20% of available TOC (total available carbon). It has also been proven that there is little difference between the results from high end skimmers and cheaper models of the same size rating. Despite this knowledge, protein skimmers are highly credited and revered for success. The same is true of LED lighting. Aquarium shows are wall to wall LED manufacturers now but the truth of that matter is mass produced LED light fixtures pale in comparison to MHL, no pun intended. There is a strong positive feedback for these systems with very few unsatisfied users, so that is encouraging.
I think we are getting honest, unbiased feedback on cryptic and benthic zone filtration and it's something we aren't entirely used to. We are accustomed to measuring the merits of a technology or methodology by reviewing numerous articles and threads expounding their virtues. You just have to filter out the hype and commercial biased. The only criticism I have heard is in regard to detritus build-up if the area is unaccessible but in my opinion this is due to poor design/access for cleaning and skipping important details such as pre-filtration (mechanical filtration) and omitting larger voracious critters like starfish, urchins, and crabs to keep the zone clean. We need to reflect on nature to focus on ways to replicate its success. In nature there are micro (small) as well as macro (larger) invertebrate janitors in the cryptic/benthic zone. A benthic zone sump is a perfect area to throw unwanted reef bandits like parasitic coral picker crabs, fish or coral eating starfish, and coraline algae eating urchins etc. Sea cucumbers are another good addition, as well as non-photosynthetic bivalves such as flame scallops that polish the water by removing diatoms, cyanobacteria spores, phytoplankton, ammonia, phosphate and nitrogen.
A rich biodiversity in your system is the key to striking a natural balance. We can tip the scale a bit to our favour by providing more real estate for cryptic invertebrates, thus eliminating the growth limiting factor. Cryptic zones are not only a method of removing excess nutrients, but a way of providing nourishment for fish and corals in the display tank as it is a perfect plankton farm/nursery (plankton like slow flow and darkness).
Some critics claim that cryptic zones are contributing to the bioload and are nutrient producers not consumers. The food these inverts are consuming is not being added (imported) for them, and they are consumers not producers like algae. They are just cleaning up (assimilating and dissimilating) a nutrient and organic load that already exists as a surplus. The members of the cryptic community are diverse enough to assimilate organics without leaving residual nitrate. The chief denizens of the cryptic zone are detrivorous (detritus/debris eaters) worms and sponges & sea squirts that directly consume nitrogen (ammonia, nitrite & nitrate), as well as bacteria, free floating algae, and iron.
Whether you want it or not, you have cryptic zones and subsequent filtration. The question is how to make the most of it.
The invertebrates that grow in cryptic zones have adapted to be opportunistic feeders, dining on excess nutrients such as nitrogen & phosphate, heavy metals, bacteria, free-floating algae and other junk from the illuminated reef above. Corals growing on the sunny side of the reef have adapted to utilize algae within their tissue to derive energy from carbohydrates (sugars) that their symbiotic algae partners (zooxanthellae) produce through photosynthesis. Cryptic inverts have adapted in a non-photosynthetic environment. To make up for the lack of free energy from the sun and algae, cryptic inverts have taken advantage of what they have a lot of, and that's a steady rain of garbage (detritus & nutrients) from the reef above.
Cryptic zones in aquariums don't need to be highly engineered as they occur naturally as a matter of course. Anywhere there is a dark area where algae won't grow, miraculously small cryptic inverts will appear like the guys selling $5.00 water at music festivals. These inverts include sponges, sea squirts (tunicates), fan/feather duster worms, serpulid/fire worms (look like sea earthworms and often sting like a cactus), bivalves (clams, scallops etc.), barnacles, and plankton. The areas you will find them in your tank are overflow boxes, sumps, in the substrate, and on the undersides of rock and coral in the display tank.
There is a saying that "nature doesn't like empty spaces". Wherever there is an excess of food, or available home, an opportunistic organism will find it and set up shop. When you feed your tank a good portion of that food goes right over the overflow box unless you have a system to shut down the pumps or a feeding station of some sort. Aiptasia and majano anemones are photosynthetic, but they are also active filter feeders and collect passing food with their handy tentacles so overflow boxes are a perfect environment for them. Filter feeders draw in water through their tissue and polish it by removing the nutrients, heavy metals, and organic carbon (TOC). The removal of these food items not only helps with he chemical composition of the water, it also improves water clarity which helps light penetrate as the yellow pigmented organics are removed.
We can replicate the natural balance of organisms that nature uses by providing more homes for cryptic inverts. In nature, the cryptic zone is exponentially larger than the illuminated reef. By spacing our live rock and adding structures to overflow boxes and sumps, we can make up for the chief growth limiting factor (real estate).
The key to cryptic filtration is location... location... location. I build eggcrate structures and place them in sumps below the refugium as a "Duplex System" for better use of space. The duplex term refers to the upper illuminated refugium and lower basement apartment for our cryptic friends. The network of eggcrate panels allow water to passively move through while providing a 360 degree surface for cryptic inverts to attach. I call these natural/biological filters "benthic zones" due to the replication of a substrate, rather than an underside of a reef rock like the cryptic zones that Steve Tyree has created. Tyree's systems are comprised of unique rock formations that allows for more shadowed areas. You can read more on his systems here. http://www.dynamicecomorphology.com/ and here http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1020248 and you can read more about similar benthic systems here. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=969713
Cryptic inverts get into your tank as hitchhikers on the dark side of live rock and corals. Some sponges and sea squirts (looks like a sponge but with two vents/mouths) are very colourful and can be bought as specific pieces. While the actual effectiveness of cryptic zones on water quality is hard to measure and separate from other filtration efforts, at the very least they offer a fascinating look at a different level of the natural reef ecosystem.
In theory and in specific scientific studies, sponges and other water polishing inverts have proven to be beneficial to water quality management, but feedback on how much impact they actually make on a reef tank are slow to come. Part of this issue is due to a lack of hype typically surrounding commercial products catering to the niche market. In the case of protein skimmers, they have been proven to only remove 80% of available proteins and 20% of available TOC (total available carbon). It has also been proven that there is little difference between the results from high end skimmers and cheaper models of the same size rating. Despite this knowledge, protein skimmers are highly credited and revered for success. The same is true of LED lighting. Aquarium shows are wall to wall LED manufacturers now but the truth of that matter is mass produced LED light fixtures pale in comparison to MHL, no pun intended. There is a strong positive feedback for these systems with very few unsatisfied users, so that is encouraging.
I think we are getting honest, unbiased feedback on cryptic and benthic zone filtration and it's something we aren't entirely used to. We are accustomed to measuring the merits of a technology or methodology by reviewing numerous articles and threads expounding their virtues. You just have to filter out the hype and commercial biased. The only criticism I have heard is in regard to detritus build-up if the area is unaccessible but in my opinion this is due to poor design/access for cleaning and skipping important details such as pre-filtration (mechanical filtration) and omitting larger voracious critters like starfish, urchins, and crabs to keep the zone clean. We need to reflect on nature to focus on ways to replicate its success. In nature there are micro (small) as well as macro (larger) invertebrate janitors in the cryptic/benthic zone. A benthic zone sump is a perfect area to throw unwanted reef bandits like parasitic coral picker crabs, fish or coral eating starfish, and coraline algae eating urchins etc. Sea cucumbers are another good addition, as well as non-photosynthetic bivalves such as flame scallops that polish the water by removing diatoms, cyanobacteria spores, phytoplankton, ammonia, phosphate and nitrogen.
A rich biodiversity in your system is the key to striking a natural balance. We can tip the scale a bit to our favour by providing more real estate for cryptic invertebrates, thus eliminating the growth limiting factor. Cryptic zones are not only a method of removing excess nutrients, but a way of providing nourishment for fish and corals in the display tank as it is a perfect plankton farm/nursery (plankton like slow flow and darkness).
Some critics claim that cryptic zones are contributing to the bioload and are nutrient producers not consumers. The food these inverts are consuming is not being added (imported) for them, and they are consumers not producers like algae. They are just cleaning up (assimilating and dissimilating) a nutrient and organic load that already exists as a surplus. The members of the cryptic community are diverse enough to assimilate organics without leaving residual nitrate. The chief denizens of the cryptic zone are detrivorous (detritus/debris eaters) worms and sponges & sea squirts that directly consume nitrogen (ammonia, nitrite & nitrate), as well as bacteria, free floating algae, and iron.
Whether you want it or not, you have cryptic zones and subsequent filtration. The question is how to make the most of it.
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
Sponges are great water polishers, eating bacteria & algae. The blue sponges available in the pet trade are photosynthetic, not cryptic in nature.
nineball
Active member
Mr. Wilson.......Saturday mornings are usually a reserved treat for me where I get to snooze later and relax. This article stole that pleasure from me. You must learn to deliver excellent, informative and downright useful information like this at peak consumer times like after dinner or midnight quiet periods.
Well done again Sir, well written and truly beneficial to my learning curve. This is definately 'stuff of merit' for the capn's log for sure. I/we thank you for taking the time to do this on our behalf.
Peter
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
Your kids are obviously older if you can sleep past 6:30. My daughter is 4 so sleeping in and relaxing is replaced with helping with crafts, making breakfast and endless children's programming. Today's Caillou episode was about aquariums. Did you know snails eat algae? I can't escape it either
Reefski's
Active member
Coral magazine had a recent article about the filtration capabilities of sponges in the cryptic zone.
http://coralmagazine.coverleaf.com/coral/20100102?pg=17&search_term=sponge&search_term=sponge#pg17
Coral magazine is IMO the best magazine out there for reefkeeping.
i have some LR in my system that has been in captivity for over ten years and there are several different types of sponges on them.
they are a very interesting component of the reef.
http://coralmagazine.coverleaf.com/coral/20100102?pg=17&search_term=sponge&search_term=sponge#pg17
Coral magazine is IMO the best magazine out there for reefkeeping.
i have some LR in my system that has been in captivity for over ten years and there are several different types of sponges on them.
they are a very interesting component of the reef.
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