Curing Ich in Display Tank?

[tmz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12652364#post12652364 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cloak
When I first put my 3" Red Sea sailfin in my cramped 60 gallon tank, it had two blurry eyes & a slight case of ich. Don't see alot of those fish around here. Impulse buy. Think I had a small regal tang, two chromis, a fiji blue devil, a sixline, an umpire damsel & a coral beauty. Why didn't my other fish contract it? Riddle me this and all be on my way. When an aquarist husbandry sucks, your prone.

Riddle me this. Your fish have probably been exposed enough so that the survivors have partial immunity. Part of poor husbandry is no quarantine in my opinion. But if not Abracadabra and the protozoan cryltolcaryon irritans transforms into an immortal tick.

 

[paulamrein]

I know, I was referring that in efforts to keep the parasites at bay they work hard on water quality which benefits the corals and no effect on the parasites. I am fully aware of the epidemic proportions it can have with one cyst producing 300 to 400 clones every cycle, than ALL of those 300 to 400 produce another 300 to 400. You can have it in the millions within a months time. That's why there's nothing that can stop them if they get a foot hold. The healthiest fish in the world can't keep off millions of those things off. It's like being in a room with a swarm of bees wearing insect repellant. You may fight off the first couple but eventually you may as well be wearing honey underwear.

 

[Bruno3047]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12652793#post12652793 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by paulamrein
That's why there's nothing that can stop them if they get a foot hold. The healthiest fish in the world can't keep off millions of those things off.

I agree 100%.

The debate about the right way to deal with Ich is, and will always be, never ending.

What usually happens is the individual either smartens up, or leaves the hobby altogether out of frustration and disgust.

 

[paulamrein]

If this could go straight to the top and the conditions in which they get the fish from the ocean to the lfs were better, I think it would be less of an issue. LFS are really not the issue, most fish are infected way before they get there. In the commercial industry they are very strict about QT and administering various shots for worms and parasites. But, what would be the cost of it coming to the hobby side? We need a system that is both effective and cost efficient. There is really no easy answer. But I firmly believe if/when the saltwater hobby gets a boost from local clubs and orgs. The hobby will take off leaps and bounds more people having a saltwater tank means more people with ideas not thought of by the next person and perhaps a better tomorrow for the hobby. The internet is good for dispelling myths, but it's so easy to blog or rant that it's balanced out by all the bogus information.

 

[downhillbiker]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12651806#post12651806 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cloak
Just because all of your fish have been through quarantine and are doing great, does not mean that they can't contract ich somewhere down the road. A faulty heater. A chill that was brought on. Something out of the ordinary. No cure for the common cold. I've had it, don't know where I got it from though. Kind of a horrible reality.

JMO.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/ft/index.php

but in that situation the ich still has to be present in the tank. if the heater goes bad, as in your example, ich isn't going to magically appear, it is just stressing the fish enough to cause the outbreak. but remember everyone, that there doesnt have to be anything wrong to cause an outbreak. in my case, the fish are completely heathy, have a good diet, and all equipment is running properly.

 

[paulamrein]

downhill,
Have you made arrangements for a QT? If the infection isn't that bad I would take a week or two and develop some biofiltration. A sponge from your sump, or just feed your tank (fishless) and let the ammonia rise than let it cycle. You can add some different products to jump start the bacteria as well. It's not really something you want to start on a Saturday and have the fish in there by Monday morning if you can help it.

 

[JustinReef]

In the end, people will do what they want and feel is right. People will justify it however they can because thats human nature. Theres always going to be a reason people won't QT fish. They will continue to kill fish and theres no way to stop them. They will not listen unless its what they want to hear...

But what I hope is that at least some people that learn from others mistakes and start saving some fish. Especially people new to the hobby. QT just needs to become a normal part of fish keeping not unlike cycling a tank. It shouldn't even be questioned.

 

[JustinReef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12652632#post12652632 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cloak
Just make sure that quarantine tank is of adequate size. Seen to many threads about puting a tang in a 75 gallon tank. Bet you that quarantine tank is half the size, if not smaller. There is just something about a happy healthy reef that turn those frowns upside down. By all means, __________.

:rollface:

This coming from the guy who put a few tangs including a Sailfin in a 60G AND knew it had ich :rollface:

Besides, 6-8 weeks in a small hospital tank will not hurt a tang. The small tank will stress it but in the long run often save it.

Again, just another way to justify not QTing.

 

[downhillbiker]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12653191#post12653191 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by paulamrein
downhill,
Have you made arrangements for a QT? If the infection isn't that bad I would take a week or two and develop some biofiltration. A sponge from your sump, or just feed your tank (fishless) and let the ammonia rise than let it cycle. You can add some different products to jump start the bacteria as well. It's not really something you want to start on a Saturday and have the fish in there by Monday morning if you can help it.

that is covered. i have had a QT tank set up for 2 years. it is always running in case i ever need it. it has no need for cycle because that happened long ago. i am just watching the fish for now and seeing how they do, if it gets bad enough i will take the next step and move them. all i would have to do in the QT tank is check the parameters and do a water change, and change the filter media.

 

[downhillbiker]

oh and "as i wrote earlier in this thread" my QT is 20 gallons. yes it is small, but if i do regular water changes i should be fine for the relatively short time it will take to cure ich, and run the display through the fallow cycle.

 

[JustinReef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12653937#post12653937 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by downhillbiker
that is covered. i have had a QT tank set up for 2 years. it is always running in case i ever need it. it has no need for cycle because that happened long ago. i am just watching the fish for now and seeing how they do, if it gets bad enough i will take the next step and move them. all i would have to do in the QT tank is check the parameters and do a water change, and change the filter media.

Hey good luck man!

I really hope your fish all get through this. I feel really bad for your situation but this thread is very good IMO. Many people have offered great advice and opinions.

 

[tmz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12653191#post12653191 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by paulamrein
downhill,
Have you made arrangements for a QT? If the infection isn't that bad I would take a week or two and develop some biofiltration. A sponge from your sump, or just feed your tank (fishless) and let the ammonia rise than let it cycle. You can add some different products to jump start the bacteria as well. It's not really something you want to start on a Saturday and have the fish in there by Monday morning if you can help it.

If you decide to treat, treat as quickly as you can to avoid a secondary infestation which can occur within a few days to a a week or so. Each parasite that goes to the substrate an encysts produces 200 to 300 more who swim out looking for a fish.
You can speed ammonia breakdown in your qt with any seeded media. Some sand or crushed coral for the bottom placed in afilter bag of the qt hob filter or in a bowl can help,used filter material etc. You can also use tank water not for denitrification since the bacteria you need are in or on substrate but to lessen the harsh effects of newly mixed salt water. Monitor ammonia and use Ammo Lock or another detoxifier and water changes as needed.You do not need a fully cycled qt since you need not concern yourself about nitrite or nitrate only ammonia and the ammonia consuming bacteria are relatively quick to establish themselves.

Good Luck

 

[downhillbiker]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12653960#post12653960 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by justinpsmith
Hey good luck man!

I really hope your fish all get through this. I feel really bad for your situation but this thread is very good IMO. Many people have offered great advice and opinions.

i agree. this thread has helped many people out, including me. i feel that i am fairly knowledgeable about ich, but thought i would get other's opinions and it has "broadened my horizons". i think my best bet is to just watch and see how they are doing? if they start doing better then i will probably just leave them in the tank until i move, in about a year, and do the QT then.

right now the ich is only on a couple fish and is probably worst on my regal tang, which has about 5-10 specks on it at any given time. all the fish are healthy and active.

do you think this is the right idea everyone?

 

[downhillbiker]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12653976#post12653976 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
If you decide to treat, treat as quickly as you can to avoid a secondary infestation which can occur within a few days to a a week or so. Each parasite that goes to the substrate an encysts produces 200 to 300 more who swim out looking for a fish.
You can speed ammonia breakdown in your qt with any seeded media. Some sand or crushed coral for the bottom placed in afilter bag of the qt hob filter or in a bowl can help,used filter material etc. You can also use tank water not for denitrification since the bacteria you need are in or on substrate but to lessen the harsh effects of newly mixed salt water. Monitor ammonia and use Ammo Lock or another detoxifier and water changes as needed.You do not need a fully cycled qt since you need not concern yourself about nitrite or nitrate only ammonia and the ammonia consuming bacteria are relatively quick to establish themselves.

Good Luck

JUST SO I AM PERFECTLY CLEAR...

My QT has been set up for 2 years. It has both a HOB filter and a Fluval Canister Filter on it. It has 3 clay pots in it, 2 powerheads, a 65w CF light, a 15w actinic light, and a UV sterilizer. I usually treat ich with copper power and a half-hyposalinity, about 1.015. I will probably use some kind of ammo chips to help keep the toxicity down, but will also do regular water changes.

i do weekly water changes normally, but under sick conditions in an undersized tank i will do them twice a week. i also should add that my tomini tang is 3.5" long and my regal tang is 2.5" long, so both are small. maroon clown is small, and other fish are very small.

 

[Bruno3047]

It's a tough call but I'll say this.

Everything looks manageable until it's not.

Once they stop eating, it's over.

 

[JustinReef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12653996#post12653996 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by downhillbiker
i agree. this thread has helped many people out, including me. i feel that i am fairly knowledgeable about ich, but thought i would get other's opinions and it has "broadened my horizons". i think my best bet is to just watch and see how they are doing? if they start doing better then i will probably just leave them in the tank until i move, in about a year, and do the QT then.

right now the ich is only on a couple fish and is probably worst on my regal tang, which has about 5-10 specks on it at any given time. all the fish are healthy and active.

do you think this is the right idea everyone?

Personally I would QT right away but I think at this point you know enough about the problem to deal with it how you feel right. Your plan sounds ok as long as you QT if it does get bad. Things can go downhill so fast.

 

[paulamrein]

I've always looked at it like this. I take all information and prioritize what will kill my fish first. That is what I address. I say that the fact that they are eating is even more of a sign to get them in there. You don't want to wait too long before another cycle hits as tmz said. If it was only as easy as all the parasites get together and say "ok we jump off the fish on the count of 3." When ever in QT you usually have ich in at least 2 or 3 of the stages which only one stage is even susceptible to treatment. So the faster they go in the more on the same page they are on to ensure a complete cycle. I think that is why some say QT doesn't work because after treatment they still got it. It's because while you were killin' they were encysted and once you say ok 6 weeks on the dot here they go back in, than the cyst breaks and lucky for the little booger gets on a fish right before you put them in the display. I only suggested you wait if you didn't have an established QT. Going back to prioritizing, the uncycled tank would have killed the fish before the ich, them not eating is a higher consern than ich. Bacterial infections depending on which one may take precedence. etc etc...

 

[downhillbiker]

i think that you guys are right. i will catch the fish tomorrow and start the QT. i am also prepared to treat any infection with formalin. hopefully it doesnt get there, because infection can cause some major havoc on fish as far as stress goes. i guess i'm back to trying to catch the fish, and that wont be fun.

 

[tmz]

If the fish can be easily couagt without destroying a reef and you have a ready qt,I personally would not wait. It's your call.
Have they had a heavy infestation yet? If they have and are now showing milder symptoms on a second infestation they may be developing a partial immunity or just in between attacks. Evry week or two the parasites multiply by about 200 fold. The math is scary.
There should not be a need to do qt for these fish after a year since the ich strain should have expired by then.

Just on note on the cysts. They form onlhe substrate.6weeks is the recommended fishless period for a display,however, some cysts have remained viable for 72days.

 

[downhillbiker]

i will do a QT with copper and hypo for 8 weeks. i will also increase the temp slightly to increase the cycle rate and try to get through more cycles of the parasite, and eventually death.

please explain your statement about not QT after a year TMZ. i am confused?