Cyanide

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13999702#post13999702 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by greenbean36191
The most recent published data is 18% figure, not the 40% figure from the early 90s, so I'm not sure how you can derive that more than 50% of the fish are still being caught with cyanide even accounting for the poor sensitivity of the test and corrupt reporting.

The tests are also being performed at all stages of the chain including directly from collectors to reduce the chances of testing fish after they've already cleared the cyanide.

There's no doubt that the BFAR numbers are low, but AFAIK they are the only hard numbers on the subject. They also have an extremely large sample size with wide coverage. The 70-90% estimates are exactly that- estimates. They're only as good as the assumptions they're based on which tend to be pretty bad and often intended to illustrate worst-case scenarios, not necessarily the best estimate. You can't look at the number of tons of fish passing through Manila, estimate how much is going to the food market, use the average weight of fish caught (food or ornamental) to determine the number of fish that represents, then estimate the average weight of cyanide used per fish, then divide by the amount of cyanide used each year and expect to come up with an accurate percentage. Likewise, you're going to get excessively high numbers if you assume that every boat with cyanide aboard uses it on every fish or that every fish lost in the chain of custody was due to cyanide.

I think it's pretty safe to say that the true number is somewhere between the best case scenario of 18-40% and the worst case scenario of 70-90%. Split the difference and you get ~55%. That would mean that about 71% of Indonesia's fish would have to be cyanide caught to make up the majority in the hobby since the two countries account for 80% of the industry. It's possible, but show me hard numbers that support it.

Another thing to note about the BFAR testing of the later 90's is it wasn't random. The exporters chose which fish to send in. I've got a stack of those BFAR certificates from my old job, what a joke those are I'll see if I can find one of the scans I made and post it here

 

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13999732#post13999732 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by greenbean36191
FWIW, I've never heard of using gasoline either. Almost all of the cases I've seen the divers just crushed the tablets and dissolved them in water. Recently (in the Indian Ocean is as specific as I'll get) I did see one diver dissolve tablets in something other than water, though I'm not sure what. It was amber colored, but looked too dark to be gas.

:lol: He was going for the old one two...CN and clove oil (j/K in case you didn't catch my sarcasm )

 

[cortez marine]

There and back again...

There and back again...

Hi folks,
I am reluctant to post as a real explaination of this issue alienates a lot of hobbyists who do not want the guilt trip associated with it and who do want that cool fish regardless of how it was collected.

Gasoline is not used to dissolve cyanide as Jay pointed out; Its already super water soluable. Many Philippine boats reek of gasoline smell though.

Cyanide collection is a thing few foreigners ever see. The ones that do have perhaps chanced upon some of the really dumb or oblivious cyanide fishers .
Real cyanide fishers are not going to show you their craft and as a result, the casual visitor will not see what happens.
City folks are extremely easy to fool. City based Filipino/Indo visitors as well.
The fact that some visitors do see it though points to the tip of the iceberg.

"Researchers" in the Philippines and Indo miss most of what is reality and extrapolate from small sightings.
Eco groups latch on to it as a funding anchor and futher muddle the truth while producing no remedies as solutions to this problem are not in their skill sets..
10-15 million dollars have been raised and squandered on this thing which is another huge story in itself.

Internet culture naturally tends to seek internet solutions or understandings. People hope to find the answers to these things on the internet as if the primary characters or their views are ever found here.
99% of the players in this 40 year old drama do not or have not shared or contributed to the "available data."

I have current, ongoing contact with collectors in the Philippines now as email capability has reached outlying villages. Everything one needs to know is now finally knowable.
Do you really want to know?
Region to region there are differences. Some are very heavy on cyanide and some are liberated zones.
Most of the good news in the past decade has been generated by local people and small goverment bodies.. Very little from the American Bingos...[ie Big Inept NGOS.]
People don't like to hear this do they?
But it is history now. Its what happened.

Bilbo Baggins

 

[GreshamH]

Re: There and back again...

Re: There and back again...

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14001009#post14001009 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cortez marine
Hi folks,
I am reluctant to post as a real explaination of this issue alienates a lot of hobbyists who do not want the guilt trip associated with it and who do want that cool fish regardless of how it was collected.

Gasoline is not used to dissolve cyanide as Jay pointed out; Its already super water soluable. Many Philippine boats reek of gasoline smell though.

Cyanide collection is a thing few foreigners ever see. The ones that do have perhaps chanced upon some of the really dumb or oblivious cyanide fishers .
Real cyanide fishers are not going to show you their craft and as a result, the casual visitor will not see what happens.
City folks are extremely easy to fool. City based Filipino/Indo visitors as well.
The fact that some visitors do see it though points to the tip of the iceberg.

"Researchers" in the Philippines and Indo miss most of what is reality and extrapolate from small sightings.
Eco groups latch on to it as a funding anchor and futher muddle the truth while producing no remedies as solutions to this problem are not in their skill sets..
10-15 million dollars have been raised and squandered on this thing which is another huge story in itself.

Internet culture naturally tends to seek internet solutions or understandings. People hope to find the answers to these things on the internet as if the primary characters or their views are ever found here.
99% of the players in this 40 year old drama do not or have not shared or contributed to the "available data."

I have current, ongoing contact with collectors in the Philippines now as email capability has reached outlying villages. Everything one needs to know is now finally knowable.
Do you really want to know?
Region to region there are differences. Some are very heavy on cyanide and some are liberated zones.
Most of the good news in the past decade has been generated by local people and small goverment bodies.. Very little from the American Bingos...[ie Big Inept NGOS.]
People don't like to hear this do they?
But it is history now. Its what happened.

Bilbo Baggins

AS Jay pointed out? Take a stroll two posts above his Steve I posted that just prior to PM'ing you to join the thread :lol: I'd also say the few in this thread are hardly hobbyists

 

[billsreef]

Re: Re: There and back again...

Re: Re: There and back again...

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14002726#post14002726 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GreshamH
I'd also say the few in this thread are hardly hobbyists

At least 5 of us are sick enough to be professional fish geeks :lol;

 

[yrema]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13966410#post13966410 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by billsreef
Greanbean,

My experiences over the years coincide very well with Jay's info. I've also known a few importers with direct ties to the Philippines, based on what I've learned from them, those BFAR numbers can't be trusted to be anyway near accurate. I've also been in online conversations with James Baquero, Ferdinand Cruz and a few others with direct first hand knowledge of the situation in the Philippines. Basically, lots of corruption involved those numbers as well as the problems with the testing methods themselves. I expect the situation in Indo isn't any better.

True. From where I am right now, I must say that most fishes sold here are cyanide caught.

It's been a problem here for decades now, and still is a problem today.
And oh, BFAR? I don't trust those guys FWIW.

So in a nutshell:

Rural folks collect ornamental fish using cyanide (if there are other methods of collecting large amount of fast, small ornamental fishes in such short period of time, let me know)

which in turn, are bought by city folks for export

rejects are then sold to Cartimar, a large complex of LFS and petshops.

Fishes that have high (?) survival rate are then sold to fish exporters.

We had several conversations with collectors, shop owners and exporters. Believe me, their answer is always the same. Sick, sad but true.

loosecannon - I don't think your post is of any help to this thread. Politics will always get a good thread closed.

 

[JustinReef]

Re: There and back again...

Re: There and back again...

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14001009#post14001009 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cortez marine


Gasoline is not used to dissolve cyanide as Jay pointed out; Its already super water soluable. Many Philippine boats reek of gasoline smell though.

It was used in the water the morning of one of our dives for something. There was not another boat around the area except ours. Our diver leader who has been diving the area for many, many years said it was very common and had to do with collecting fish. He was reluctant to talk at all about it but since we had stumbled upon a "graveyard" of dead fish and we persisted he did. He said it was the first time he had seen it in the area because it was heavily populated by tourists but he was not at all surprised. He said they come very early morning sometimes in the tourist areas.

I am not sure what the gas was used for but it certainly was there.

 

[cortez marine]

Perhaps a different drug with a different cutting agent?
Steve

 

[GreshamH]

Or for collecting food fish... The food fish practices tend to be far worse then live MO.