Cycling Discussion.

[jminick2]

Lol what is complicated? It's dead simple. Sure I tend to explain the background of stuff a lot but what needs to be done is easy. And you don't contradict yourself? I explained exactly where you contradicted yourself.

But whatever, I am here to help a newbie out, not argue with you. The newbie don't seem to have a problem with what to do, so that's good enough for me. I'll leave it at that.

@JimsSWreef: Yeah there are plenty of variations, just base it on the guidelines and modify as you see fit for your aquarium specifically.

If I was using your method.....how many bacteria would I need to support a hippo tang, a yellow tang, an angel, a blenny, two clowns, a mandarin (which doesn't eat what u feed so how you going to calculate that) 10 hermits and 20 snails. the way you talk one should know exactly the amount of bacteria it is going to take to support this bioload simply by feeding what it takes support these fish. As if there are no other sources of ammonia ever.... Also how do you take into account different feeding regimens that people use. One day I could feed twice a day the other I may only feed once.

There is no planning how many bacteria will be there when a cycle is complete [deleted].

 

[bertoni]

I moved this to a new thread, because it seems to be going beyond the question asked. Let's keep the discussion to the topic at hand, which is bacteria and the cycling process.

 

[jminick2]

Here's a better one..... if you prep a tank pre cycle by feeding according to what the fish are going to eat......how much bacteria would prepare for a tank with 10 mandarins and 10 tangs with a tank full of algae that the tangs are grazing on all day every day. you have no idea how how much waste is being produced from either fish because u have no idea how much they are actually eating.

 

[Azedenkae]

Sounds good bertoni, I was going to start one of this threads myself. Thanks!

So it's actually very simple, and you're making it more complicated than it needs to be. Firstly, I never said or in any way indicate that you need to know the exact amount of bacteria that needs to be grown in any sort of specific numbers. And why do we even need to know what specific number it is?

Fact is you don't need to know those numbers directly. All you have to do is to ensure that there are enough, and that's through simple tests, such as the 'dose ammonia to a certain point and see if it clears within 24 hours' or something similar (I prefer fish food, but that's me). That will test you whether you have enough bacteria to clear that much ammonia or fish food or whatever you are testing for, and that's all you need to know, whether you have enough bacteria or otherwise. Done. Simple. No need to get into complicated stuff like how many of each type of bacteria, or what composition of bacteria it is, or stuff like that.

Secondly, all you need to do is to identify the amount of food you are going to give, and that includes any sort of alternative regime that you may be aiming for. Granted, sometimes it is harder to estimate it than others, such as in the example you give. But it's not hard to give an approximate, and then tack on some extra. Like I keep on saying over and over, you're not attempting to grow a specific number of bacteria. You're growing an amount of bacteria, whatever that amount is, capable of taking care of a certain amount of organics.

So let's take that first example you gave. Say I will be giving the hippo tang, a yellow tang, an angel, a blenny, and two clowns a total of 100 pellets per day (just as an example), and the mandarin will hunt copepods all over, so let's imagine it as being a cube of brine shrimp. The snails and everything can consume a cube of food total. So a day, that'd be 100 pellets and two cubes. To be sure, I'd use say 125 pellets and 2.5 cubes to prepare the microbial population. Once the cycle is completed, I'd know then that the microbes in the tank can deal with that amount of food, and so feeding would be fine.

If you know you're going to feed different amounts each day, then simply go for the larger amount. I myself feed my fish anywhere between 2 to 6 times a day. So prepare the microbes to deal with 6 times a day feeding. If you end up only feeding twice a day, then that's still fine. If you do feed six times a day, then that's still fine. If you only feed once a day, but sometimes feed double the amount, then prepare the microbes to be able to deal with double the amount in one feed.

Whatever the amount of planned feeding, prepare the filtration system for that much.

As for algae eaters, same thing. How much grazing could they potentially do? Base it off that.

As for the specifics of each fish, this is where you have to research the needs of each fish. If some fish need to eat more than others, prepare for that. That's what research is for. Or worse case scenario, just prepare the microbes to handle a MUCH larger bioload than what you plan. And then you won't have to worry.

Conclusion:
-Plan ahead.
-Decide how much food is needed.
-If unsure, overestimate.
-Train the filtration system to deal with the maximum.
-Profit!

 

[disc1]

Bacterial populations are a much more dynamic thing. You are making this way too simplified with the "how many bacteria" question. The question isn't about the number of bacteria, but about the rate at which they can deplete ammonia.

Also keep in mind that ammonia is not the only thing they eat.

If you have a healthy population of bacteria, then it doesn't matter if you feed more or less one day. The bacteria aren't going to go away because you didn't feed the tank today and they aren't going to have any problem clearing the extra ammonia that might come from the addition of a new fish.

It's not like there is a certain amount of ammonia that a single bacterium eats in a day and you can calculate from there. That's just not realistic with the way bacteria live and die. Once you have a population that is able to clear a ppm or two in a day, then anything else you do, from extra feedings to adding more fish, is going to be way less than that so there is no worry at all.

The total population you end up with has far more to do with the available space and the environment than it does with how much you feed.

 

[disc1]

Think of it this way, you have to support a large population of bacteria in your gut. Do you need to eat exactly the same amount of the same things each day to support them? No, you do not. You can fast for days and they'll be just fine. Now you can deplete them by insult with antibiotics or something like that. Or you may change the balance by long term dietary changes. But just eating something different one day, or skipping a day of eating doesn't wipe out the bacteria in your gut.

Bacteria are far more resilient than that.

 

[jminick2]

Think of it this way, you have to support a large population of bacteria in your gut. Do you need to eat exactly the same amount of the same things each day to support them? No, you do not. You can fast for days and they'll be just fine. Now you can deplete them by insult with antibiotics or something like that. Or you may change the balance by long term dietary changes. But just eating something different one day, or skipping a day of eating doesn't wipe out the bacteria in your gut.

Bacteria are far more resilient than that.

I don't know if you are talking to me or the other guy but I totally agree. That's what I've been trying to say.

 

[jminick2]

Sounds good bertoni, I was going to start one of this threads myself. Thanks!

So it's actually very simple, and you're making it more complicated than it needs to be. Firstly, I never said or in any way indicate that you need to know the exact amount of bacteria that needs to be grown in any sort of specific numbers. And why do we even need to know what specific number it is?

Fact is you don't need to know those numbers directly. All you have to do is to ensure that there are enough, and that's through simple tests, such as the 'dose ammonia to a certain point and see if it clears within 24 hours' or something similar (I prefer fish food, but that's me). That will test you whether you have enough bacteria to clear that much ammonia or fish food or whatever you are testing for, and that's all you need to know, whether you have enough bacteria or otherwise. Done. Simple. No need to get into complicated stuff like how many of each type of bacteria, or what composition of bacteria it is, or stuff like that.

Secondly, all you need to do is to identify the amount of food you are going to give, and that includes any sort of alternative regime that you may be aiming for. Granted, sometimes it is harder to estimate it than others, such as in the example you give. But it's not hard to give an approximate, and then tack on some extra. Like I keep on saying over and over, you're not attempting to grow a specific number of bacteria. You're growing an amount of bacteria, whatever that amount is, capable of taking care of a certain amount of organics.

So let's take that first example you gave. Say I will be giving the hippo tang, a yellow tang, an angel, a blenny, and two clowns a total of 100 pellets per day (just as an example), and the mandarin will hunt copepods all over, so let's imagine it as being a cube of brine shrimp. The snails and everything can consume a cube of food total. So a day, that'd be 100 pellets and two cubes. To be sure, I'd use say 125 pellets and 2.5 cubes to prepare the microbial population. Once the cycle is completed, I'd know then that the microbes in the tank can deal with that amount of food, and so feeding would be fine.

If you know you're going to feed different amounts each day, then simply go for the larger amount. I myself feed my fish anywhere between 2 to 6 times a day. So prepare the microbes to deal with 6 times a day feeding. If you end up only feeding twice a day, then that's still fine. If you do feed six times a day, then that's still fine. If you only feed once a day, but sometimes feed double the amount, then prepare the microbes to be able to deal with double the amount in one feed.

Whatever the amount of planned feeding, prepare the filtration system for that much.

As for algae eaters, same thing. How much grazing could they potentially do? Base it off that.

As for the specifics of each fish, this is where you have to research the needs of each fish. If some fish need to eat more than others, prepare for that. That's what research is for. Or worse case scenario, just prepare the microbes to handle a MUCH larger bioload than what you plan. And then you won't have to worry.

Conclusion:
-Plan ahead.
-Decide how much food is needed.
-If unsure, overestimate.
-Train the filtration system to deal with the maximum.
-Profit!

I get what u r saying, but I don't agree nor do I find it necessary at all. Spike the ammonia one time. Let the tank sit. The bacteria will adjust on its own done deal. Works everytime. There isn't even a need test it when it's done when ammonia and nitrites are 0 u r good. There is nothing more nothing less. Nature will do the rest as its suppose to.

 

[JimSWreef]

Think of it this way, you have to support a large population of bacteria in your gut. Do you need to eat exactly the same amount of the same things each day to support them? No, you do not. You can fast for days and they'll be just fine. Now you can deplete them by insult with antibiotics or something like that. Or you may change the balance by long term dietary changes. But just eating something different one day, or skipping a day of eating doesn't wipe out the bacteria in your gut.

Bacteria are far more resilient than that.

Very good point. Love the analogy.

 

[Azedenkae]

Wait, I totally agree with disc1 too. So what are we debating again?

 

[jminick2]

You can plan all you want by feeding according to what you think you are going to stock, you may be dead on you may be over or under feeding, no matter what your bacteria will adjust accordingly and u can't take credit for that no matter how well you plan. That's why i feel it's not necessary to plan for this, just let it do its thing it'll all work itself out with out you dropping a bunch of food in there every day. I don't doubt your way works just find it excessive. That's all.

 

[Azedenkae]

You can plan all you want by feeding according to what you think you are going to stock, you may be dead on you may be over or under feeding, no matter what your bacteria will adjust accordingly and u can't take credit for that no matter how well you plan. That's why i feel it's not necessary to plan for this, just let it do its thing it'll all work itself out with out you dropping a bunch of food in there every day. I don't doubt your way works just find it excessive. That's all.

Right. Okay so a few things. Like I said you don't have to be dead on, and in fact overfeeding is perfectly reasonable to create a more robust microbial population, which would do what disc1 said. It's not dropping food in everyday either actually, at least not as a rule of thumb. Not sure where you got that from. But yeah, why can't one take credit for it? One tests the aquarium to see if the aquarium can deal with a certain amount of organics, and if it can, then obviously there's enough microbes to deal with whatever said amount is. All you have to do is make sure that certain amount covers the intended bioload. Does that make sense now?

I've been too lazy to write it out properly, but basically the entire cycling method would be this:
1.) Set up tank.
2.) Test filtration capacity to see if it can deal with an intended amount of feeding (preferably more) within a day.
3.) If yes, you are done.
4.) If not, wait until ammonia zeros out, then start again from step 2.

In general anyways. There are exceptions, such as if you use live rock and want to keep hitchhikers alive for example, or if you're really not even attempting to rely on biological filtration much for example. In those cases modifications need to be made, but the above is the gist of it. Simple and easy enough.

 

[jminick2]

I'm done man you seem set in your ways. This is just getting annoying at this point. You wanna do things you don't need to be doing during the cycle and it works for you more power to ya. I'll keep doing what works for me.

 

[disc1]

I'm done man you seem set in your ways. This is just getting annoying at this point. You wanna do things you don't need to be doing during the cycle and it works for you more power to ya. I'll keep doing what works for me.

Bacterial ecology isn't a trivial subject. You can't really expect everyone to just get it. If someone feels the need to take extra steps and those steps don't hurt anything then there's no reason to fuss.

It's the coming and telling others that they need to do it this way or that way because of some poorly understood reasoning that is problematic.

 

[jminick2]

Bacterial ecology isn't a trivial subject. You can't really expect everyone to just get it. If someone feels the need to take extra steps and those steps don't hurt anything then there's no reason to fuss.

It's the coming and telling others that they need to do it this way or that way because of some poorly understood reasoning that is problematic.

I just cut out the extra steps that aren't needed sorry for trying to help people out I guess?

Aside from that I don't think I was the one telling people my Cycle wasn't done and I NEEDED to do this and that still. As a matter of fact I said he didn't NEED to anything. So I'm not sure what u are saying there disc I've only agreed with you from the start yet you keep quoting me [emoji845]

 

[disc1]

Sorry, I quoted you to agree. Probably should have quoted both posts or neither. My bad.

 

[jminick2]

Sorry, I quoted you to agree. Probably should have quoted both posts. My bad.

Oh ok, sorry about that. Thank you then sir.
[emoji2]

 

[Azedenkae]

I'm done man you seem set in your ways. This is just getting annoying at this point. You wanna do things you don't need to be doing during the cycle and it works for you more power to ya. I'll keep doing what works for me.

To each their own then. I am not forcing you to do anything, nor would I. Yes I find this works, and that it is not excessive. I find this works better, so of course I an set in my ways, much as you yours. I can see that we do believe in generally the same thing, except that I prefer to have a ready microbial population, not for it to play catch up after the initial cycle. But hey again, to each their own.

[EDIT]

P.S. Much as you say something needs not be done, mine saying something needs to be done is a suggestion/advice. If someone doesn't want to do it, there's no forcing.

 

[Azedenkae]

Actually, let's get to the bottom of this, because if I am wrong (so far I can't see that), I want to know. I am willing to concede if something makes sense to me. And I've realized I've been asking the wrong questions.

Mate, can you please outline what you believe is the right cycling process, what it entails, how to know the cycle has completed, what needs to be done after, and how live stock are added? I am really curious now.

 

[jminick2]

Spike ammonia however u want 1 time. Let the tank sit until ammonia and nitrites are 0 do a water change to reduce nitrates. Add CUC wait a few days add 1 or 2 fish wait a few days and so on.