DARK's 210g on Polyp Labs System Reef-resh and Reef Roids

[chtan]

I agree it would be nice to have some hard science so that we can find out what exactly causes the improvements from adding of probiotics ....

But I was willing to give it a try as Zeovit has been running for some time .... and prior to using the probiotics from reef-resh I really had a difficult time having vibrant colors .... in the past 2 months I have been pleasantly surprised ...

though the result is not 100% as 30% of the sps I have do not respond to the treatment ....

What was fascinating was those that already had potential to colour up nicely ... especially the staghorns, torts, birdsnest, branching porites and even my orange digitata all became more vibrant ....

 

[kirstenk]

I was getting some tip thinning and that is when I decided to try the K Balance and Pohl's CV. I have been dosing these products for a week and things look good. Still have some cyano.

 

[Travis]

robthorn, I haven't yet tried any of these probiotic methods but have spent a lot of time reading up on them. From what I've read from the ZEO clan, your algae sounds like a possible overdose of a bacteria carbon source and/or an ammino acid supplement. Just throwing that out in case you decide to try the system again maybe you can dose a little less of these and see if it helps. You mentioned that you were using BioDigest, BiOptim, and the full line of Reef-fresh. Were you dosing the bacteria and carbon sources from Reef-fresh along with the Prodibio? If so, that may have been too much and what led to your negative results.

 

[robthorn]

I did not dose the prodibio and reefresh on the same days. and I have been trying some up and down dosing of both products just to see what happens and from looking at the corals and trying to adjust dosages. when it didn't work I went back to recommended to see if it helped. I am sure it has something to do with my way of dosing just really putting my experience out to help others in what possibly may be a bad way of using the products. I may go back to the prodibio only for a while til things get better which the next dose would be this sunday. if things look better by sunday I will do 1 biodigest and maybe 2 bioptim and probably skip the booster until the algea slows. the funny thing is the algea on my front glass has been slowing to every 3-4 days then all of a sudden every other day it's pretty bad.
thanks travis thats funny that it might be a carbon source a local guy is what I consider definately overdosing a carbon source in his tank and has almost zero algea in his tank whatsoever. 50ml of vodka in a 600 gallon system is what he is doing. please nobody do this please I am only stating what someone is trying not what works. I watched his deep blue torts go almost white with a hint of blue tips. the thing is he is still dosing this way and the corals appear to be coming back around. he has been adding amino acids by salifert a few weeks now and I am not sure of the dose. I figured with using so much vodka he would have tissue loss but has not.
maybe I started adding the polyplab too soon. maybe alot of things but I will be sure to try to use what I have in a different way and hope for the best. I did notice the blue tips on this small stag I have has not been the bright glowing color it once was before I started using anything at all. I also have not been getting the same polyp extension from a few corals like I used to get before my experiment.
time and alot of water changes will tell.
thanks again

 

[Cprowler]

I just wanted to add some information about Reef-Resh. As you may or may not know it is a Canadian company and not a sponsor on RC. So I'm assuming they can't post on RC promoting their product. They do however on a Canadian board and I thought I would pass along a few quotes from some discussions about RF on that board.

I don't think RF is designed to be used with other methods/products including vodka.

Here are two quotes from Polyp Labs.

"System Reef-resh is a much more gradual (and consequently safer) nutrient export system than other European bacterial systems. We use more efficient strains and a much safer carbon source. Bleaching is not a problem that you will encounter with this product."

"Some European methods use vodka as a carbon source. Vodka is a terribly stupid thing to use as a carbon source in aquariums since it encourages the wrong types of bacteria to grow (Mostly autotrophic as opposed to heterotrophic). It also rapidly results in monocultures of that species and over time you end up with aquariums filled with bacteria that do not provide any real nutrient export."

 

[chtan]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7463096#post7463096 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kirstenk
I was getting some tip thinning and that is when I decided to try the K Balance and Pohl's CV. I have been dosing these products for a week and things look good. Still have some cyano.

I did notice some increase in cyano when I used the reef-resh product too ... and that was only because I misread the instruction and dose the RF Fuel ... amino and bacteria food about 10 times the recommended in the 1st day ... so I guess it was important to follow instructions properly

But thereafter, I followed instructions to the letter (except for the water change and using RO water; again noting that in Singapore the tap water is good enough to drink from the tap even though it has chlorimine and boron); and the cyano disappeared.

Other than that, I did lose one piece of encrusting montipora that was khaki brown became a creamy faint yellow (as when I bought it in Nov 05) and then began to STN and die ....

The last 3 weeks, I have finally started to firm up the positions of my sps and have even frag and prune about 30 pieces of sps 2 to 3 pieces each time and use epoxy on them ... so far so good ... limited STN (only one very piece of stag horn) ... the daily dose of Reef-resh does not seem to affect these sps that I have epoxyed.

 

[cerreta]

Kirsten, what was your reason for stopping the dosing of vodka? I am still awaiting my order, so I started the vodka dosing until it arrives. Did you have to wean the tank off the vodka? If not, could this have started your cyano bloom.

 

[kirstenk]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7465490#post7465490 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cerreta
Kirsten, what was your reason for stopping the dosing of vodka? I am still awaiting my order, so I started the vodka dosing until it arrives. Did you have to wean the tank off the vodka? If not, could this have started your cyano bloom.

Like others I am just experimenting and putting my info on the boards. I stopped the Vodka to see if it had a contributing impact on my tank. I have done this twice now. Once when I dosed Vodka alone and then quit. And now with using a combo of Prodibio, Reefesh and Vodka. In my tank I have now seen positive results from dosing Vodka, not once but twice. I am back on Vodka at 2ml a day.

I am thinking about increasing Vodka until I reach a "bloom state" but I still have some research to do. I still have some cyano and I was thinking that a "bloom state" might do the cyano in.

Like Robert, I am still trying to tweak the products to fit my tanks needs and this takes time.

An interesting observation I had was the last time I dosed Prodibio Digest I saw a very happy tank. I did not have the Bioptim either and I used Vodka as the carbon.

Travis, I am dosing RF and Prodibio but I do not have the algae that Robert mentions but I have cyano. I always seem to have some cyano.

Like Robert, I also have some corals that do not have the polyp extension that they once had mainly my Pocci's. This is why I ordered the K-Balance. I also have a Potters Angel and he could be partly to blame. I have no real complaint about this cuz my extension was crazy before and now I can see more coral color.

My next dose of Prodibio is supposed to be Sunday but at this point in my experiment I am going to stop Prodibio Bacs and go with Reefresh alone to see if I have any impact.

Once again..........this is a slow process and I will maintain my tank on a probiotic method of some sort. I am just determining what works best for me.

 

[robthorn]

oh yeah I think I forgot to mention along with the algea I do have some red cyano. not a huge amount but way more than I would like to have. It is in the sand and all over my chili coral which I have to scrub clean from time to time. otherwise it will not open.
kirsten I am not sure you will reach a bloom state with a well established system. like I mentioned the guy is dosing 50 ml of vodka half dose twice a day and as far as I know he has never reached a bloom. maybe you or someone else will but I can't say it will happen to every tank without killing everything. are you dosing 2ml for your 150?
I was dosing vodka on my old 125 1ml a day and saw no benefit at all. I had no clue what to do and couldn't find any definite information on how to do it.

 

[kirstenk]

I am dosing 2ml at the moment. I have dosed up to 4ml along with RF and Prodibio. Trying to reach a bloom is scary so that is why I have not decided for sure to try.

Here are some before and after prodibiotic pics. In the last pic ya can see some cyano. It is dark purple.

Pics are from my crummy camera but you can see.

 

[cerreta]

Thansk Kirsten, I am up to 3ml and was planning to go up one ml per week, till I reached ten, then back down to 5ml and hold.

So, I am glad to see this may be too potent of a dose for my 110g system. I will read the bible and see if it has dosing guidlines. If so, I will post later for all to see.

 

[cerreta]

OK, so I reviewed the info in the new Delbeek and Sprung book, ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œThe Reef Aquarium Vol. IIIââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ This book is worth every penny and I highly recommend it! This book addresses all the complex issues of how to run and build a successful reef. It is like no other starters book out there.

The info on the Vodka method may be found on pg 274-276.

It describes that a carbon source (specifically vodka) is valuable for stimulating growth of heterotrophic bacteria. It does not say anything in regards to colonizing monocultures. The following comment posted earlier from ReeFresh seems to be a bit bias and may be nothing more than a selling tactic:
"Some European methods use vodka as a carbon source. Vodka is a terribly stupid thing to use as a carbon source in aquariums since it encourages the wrong types of bacteria to grow (Mostly autotrophic as opposed to heterotrophic). It also rapidly results in monocultures of that species and over time you end up with aquariums filled with bacteria that do not provide any real nutrient export."

Unless supportive studies have been conducted, I am timid to believe these claims, when a reputable author states the exact opposite.

So the book describes that bacteria work in this fashion: Bacteria assimilate phosphate and nitrate from the water column. The biomass is then removed by protein skimming. When phosphate and nitrates are in abundance in the aquarium, a carbon source becomes the limiting agent necessary for the bacteria to grow. Therefore, providing a carbon source like vodka will permit the bacteria to multiply. The recommended dosage rate is 5ml-10ml per day per 1000L (260gallons). It is also discussed that forced biomass production reduces the incidence of bacterial infections that cause RTN disease. Dosing should start gradually and increased in slow steps. Furthermore, overdosing may be associated with algal blooms.

My new 110tall tank was setup on 5-17-06. I have been waiting patiently to get the Prodibio products but, have begun dosing Salifertââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s All-in-One, Natural Iodine, Amino Acids and generic vodka since day one. I moved in a bunch of sps corals and had some issues with RTN and poor PE in the first week. The RTN quickly resolved with better temp control, but STN persisted to a few corals on the left side of the tank. Week two proved to be ugly with a cyano bloom covering the sandbed and bi-daily biofilms that coated the glass. I limited the lighting times to MH only on a schedule of 8hrs. The tank is now on week three of life and the biofilms have been minimized. I clean the glass about every other day. The RTN and STN has stopped. I have a few corals that are still bleached. I also have a few with poor PE, but more than half the corals have shown good PE and coloration. The most noticeable are an orange digi that went pink!, a green pocillipora that looks fuzzy all over, and a purple tip tri-color nana that displays a deep purple color.
My 110gallon total system water should get 2-4ml of vodka per day. I am at 3ml per day and have seen excellent PE the last couple days. I will go up to 4ml per day and hold there.

I hope these observations prove helpful for someone. I will try to post pics tomorrow.

 

[elephen]

cerreta- thanks for posting the details on dosing vodka

 

[robthorn]

cerreta do you still have red slime? if so do you think going up will help or hurt? since it was earlier stated overdosing may cause algea??
I have stopped all additions until things clear up a little or take a more downward turn. I don't care about brown outs because colors can always come back I just don't want more tissue loss.

 

[cerreta]

Rob, the cyano came and left in about 7 days. I think my cyano may have been due to the newness of the tank. I setup my nano a week later and it is now in a bloom. This tank is plumbed into the main system, so there is no difference in water quality. I think the bloom is a response to a lack of bacterial cultures in the sandbed, just a guess. I did seem to think that my vhos made matters worse. I turned them off and have only been running the halides (2 250 HQI) for 8hrs a day. This made a significant difference.
GL

 

[cerreta]

elephen, thanks.

 

[robthorn]

hey dark did you run out of the acids first? I had an algea outbreak and green diatom looking stuff and red slime. I stopped everything and it seems to be going away slowly. my coral colors started going brown also. they seem to be getting better since stopping dosing.
today I looked at my bottles because I was going to put 1 drop of each in to start back slowly and I noticed that my acids bottle is twice as low as the other. I am thinking that thicker or thinner liquid causes different size drops and maybe I have been overdosing going by the label.
anyone else have any idea? I do not think I was overdosing the fuel because this started on the downward side of the lowering. I was back down to .5ml/25 gallons.

 

[kirstenk]

I have some weird tissue and polyp extension. The tissue on a lot of acros looks fleshy, swollen, bumpy. The polyps do not extend as before and when they do they sorta balloon out of the coralite and the polyps are tuliped, like taking all your fingers and touching the tips together. Acros do not seem stressed, growth is the same and colors are better in some and not in others. I do have RB's but I have never heard of this type of symptom. I also have lived with RB's off and on for a long time so I know their effects on my corals. After I feed the tank some acros extend lots of mesenteries fibers.

I noticed the tissue change before 4/17.

I started Prodibio 4/01

I started Reefresh 4/17

I stopped Prodibio Digest and Bioptim on 5/20

Polyp condition has gotten worse over the course.

I dosed nothing today.

I want to know of anyone else has noticed anything similar. I have pics if ya want to see.

PS.........I have lost a ton of zoo's. I have also had trouble with some LPS.

 

[robthorn]

I would definately stop dosing until you figure out which one of the products you are overdosing. I might guess acids but it is only a guess. I have started back adding 1 drop of everything and so far so good. I am back to 5 ml of fuel to see what happens. are the ill effects near the tip or base or the whole thing?

 

[DARKPHREAK]

Although I'm still hopeful Ive lost my 2 Purple Monsters and an orange cap. My system is coming back to where it should be, because I no longer have weird fleshy polyp extension.

Rob, sorry for the late reply,

I still have 1/2 bottle of RF-Plus left. The liquids are thicker or thinner hence different levels in each bottle. I was told that overdosing 5x should not have an ill effect on the system but...

Some of the deep water acros have turned completely brown, which I was also told they would revert back to this state when I stopped The System, thing is they weren't brown when I got them from someone else's tank.