Aquarist007
New member
the container inside the sump would work but why not buy a piece of acrylic and glue it in.
I would then t off the drain and have one of the section go directly to the sand bed and the other into the sump.
Deep Sand Bed -- Anatomy & Terminology
- Thread starter Whys
- Start date
the container inside the sump would work but why not buy a piece of acrylic and glue it in.
I would then t off the drain and have one of the section go directly to the sand bed and the other into the sump.
Whys
New member
I don't think I've ever read of a downward size limit on a DSB. I have seen some small enough to be part of a hob unit, like maybe 3 gallons of sand. The concern is population collapse of the essential sand critters. For example, a handful of human beings in an elevator, even with proper feeding, will have trouble keeping themselves populated within the confines of such a small space. But otherwise, to my knowledge, it should be possible.
Aquarist007
New member
I agree---I have also read a number of times that 7 inches of depth is deep enough
Nanz
Premium Member
I agree these guys really have great detrivores. They are very healthy and multiply quickly. I had problems receiving some detrivores here in Ohio due to cold and IPSF sent me an extra shippment because my stars were dead. Very good custome support and as you can see my stars are thriving now
When I turn the flow off they like to climb the glass.
Aquarist007
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15288311#post15288311 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Nanz
I agree these guys really have great detrivores. They are very healthy and multiply quickly. I had problems receiving some detrivores here in Ohio due to cold and IPSF sent me an extra shippment because my stars were dead. Very good custome support and as you can see my stars are thriving now
When I turn the flow off they like to climb the glass.
I had an epidemic of those although they did not harm--1000's of them. They either killed there own numbers off or I depleted the population by running a filter sock.
The sock would get clogged in less then a day with them too:eek2:
Thanks for the info I'll try to answer
1- acrylic to section it off - I would really like to do this but getting in there to do it would be the problem - it's really tight
2 - as far as the elevator and keeping the population right - I think that would depend on the mix of people in there - may lead to over crowding...
3 - as small as 3 gal of sand - that probably kills it right there - I don;t have the space.
Thanks - now to find some other way to do this...
1- acrylic to section it off - I would really like to do this but getting in there to do it would be the problem - it's really tight
2 - as far as the elevator and keeping the population right - I think that would depend on the mix of people in there - may lead to over crowding...
3 - as small as 3 gal of sand - that probably kills it right there - I don;t have the space.
Thanks - now to find some other way to do this...
Aquarist007
New member
by far cheato will do a better job at nitrate reduction ---and phosphate reduction then a deep sand bed. If you cultivate the chaeto properly it will grow quite rapidly which means it is using up nitrates and phosphates
Consider these dishes for a refugium----they cost a dollar each
Aquarist007
New member
right but no cigar Brad
DSB's remove nitrates---chaeto removes nitrates and phosphates--plus does a better job of it.
It you are concerned about algae growth in your display tank then go with the chaeto
Whys
New member
Capn, can you please point me to some articles that clearly demonstrate superior denitration from Chaeto rather than DSB? Sorry, but I'm personally skeptical.
It should be said that a DSB also offers other benefits, such as buffering, and provides a biological environment for benthic organisms.
Chaeto is popular because it's easy to add to nearly any small space, but there are differences. For example, a DSB converts the nitrate into nitrogen which can aid in further biological activity. Chaeto relies on pruning and removal. Just subtraction, no addition. Some say pruning is better than a water change for nitrate reduction, but that's not to say it's the same as nitrogen production.
Where is Cloak when I need him?
Surely you didn't expect me to let this go unanswered Capn. You already have a macro-algae thread.
It should be said that a DSB also offers other benefits, such as buffering, and provides a biological environment for benthic organisms.
Chaeto is popular because it's easy to add to nearly any small space, but there are differences. For example, a DSB converts the nitrate into nitrogen which can aid in further biological activity. Chaeto relies on pruning and removal. Just subtraction, no addition. Some say pruning is better than a water change for nitrate reduction, but that's not to say it's the same as nitrogen production.
Where is Cloak when I need him?
Surely you didn't expect me to let this go unanswered Capn. You already have a macro-algae thread.
The nitrogen by product of denitrification is free nitrogen gas which simply equilibrates with the air. The only known organism in the tank that can pull it back into the food chain(fix it) is cyanobacteria. There is no benefit from the free nitrogen produced in denitrification other than its removal.
Maintained sand beds are very good for certain invertebrates and fish and are nice for the benthic fauna they offer .
If ,and its a big if,there is an adequate supply of nutrients to the hypoxic areas denitrification will occur. The nutrients get there by channeling organisms ,advection and diffusion.
Advection is upwelling caused by the flow of water over a rough surface which causes changes in water pressure in the footprint of the obstructions, wether they be a grain of sand or a rock . Advection can increase water flow in the sand by 50 fold over diffusion alone.
Diffusion is the tendency of molecules in water to move toward equilibrium through the water. Diffusion is a relatively weak force and not likely to move enough nutrients by itself to support significant anaerobic bacterial activity.
So an effective sand bed needs surface area and flow more than depth to support more advection and/or sand critters to channel nutrients down to the hypoxic areas where heteroptorphic bacteria oxidize them with the oxygen in nitrate. A little sand in a sump compartment or chamber won't do much if anything beyond capturing some detritus in my opinion.
Chaetomorpha uses carbon, phosphate and biologically available nitrogen which includes nitrate and those things that would otherwise turn into nitrate(ammonia/ammonium,nitrite, nitrate). It also consumes CO2 and produces oxygen when photosynthesizing. . When you prune it you take out what's in in and give it more room to grow. It does require lighting and surface area . A small amount in a lighted compartment will do a small amount of nutrient consumption and oxygenation.
Some put chaeto or another macroalgae over sand, The sand usually becomes very messy in short order from algae exudate in these applications.
Maintained sand beds are very good for certain invertebrates and fish and are nice for the benthic fauna they offer .
If ,and its a big if,there is an adequate supply of nutrients to the hypoxic areas denitrification will occur. The nutrients get there by channeling organisms ,advection and diffusion.
Advection is upwelling caused by the flow of water over a rough surface which causes changes in water pressure in the footprint of the obstructions, wether they be a grain of sand or a rock . Advection can increase water flow in the sand by 50 fold over diffusion alone.
Diffusion is the tendency of molecules in water to move toward equilibrium through the water. Diffusion is a relatively weak force and not likely to move enough nutrients by itself to support significant anaerobic bacterial activity.
So an effective sand bed needs surface area and flow more than depth to support more advection and/or sand critters to channel nutrients down to the hypoxic areas where heteroptorphic bacteria oxidize them with the oxygen in nitrate. A little sand in a sump compartment or chamber won't do much if anything beyond capturing some detritus in my opinion.
Chaetomorpha uses carbon, phosphate and biologically available nitrogen which includes nitrate and those things that would otherwise turn into nitrate(ammonia/ammonium,nitrite, nitrate). It also consumes CO2 and produces oxygen when photosynthesizing. . When you prune it you take out what's in in and give it more room to grow. It does require lighting and surface area . A small amount in a lighted compartment will do a small amount of nutrient consumption and oxygenation.
Some put chaeto or another macroalgae over sand, The sand usually becomes very messy in short order from algae exudate in these applications.
Tom,
I can offer this Down the Drain which does discuss the amount of export provided by macro algae. In this case the algae was Caulerpa but I would guess Chaeto has similar uptakes rates. It is somewhat less aggressive in growth rate than Caulerpa so the export amounts may need to be adjusted downwards to some degree.
I can offer this Down the Drain which does discuss the amount of export provided by macro algae. In this case the algae was Caulerpa but I would guess Chaeto has similar uptakes rates. It is somewhat less aggressive in growth rate than Caulerpa so the export amounts may need to be adjusted downwards to some degree.
Aquarist007
New member
thanks for the link WK
The big point here is that if you harvest the chaeto or macroalgae on a regular basis you remove nitrates and phophates permanently from your system.
In a dsb IMO you have to be really on top of the biology--maybe even a rocket system to be absolutely sure that it is functioning as it should. Therefore my reasoning to go with cheato.
Not trying to drag Paul into this but he has argued time and time that dsb don't last--sooner or later they fail and have to be replaced.
I personally run a deep sand bed in one of my refugiums but only as a learning experience---if I or the dsb screws up I can easily remove it from my system.
Ryan,
There are a wealth of nitrogen fixing organism in the sea and many on land, ie lichens. Also, lighting fixes nitrogen as well as your own lawn a legume. The process is endless and tends to stay in balance but in our tanks nitrogen fixation is something to be discouraged as it is a closed system.
There are a wealth of nitrogen fixing organism in the sea and many on land, ie lichens. Also, lighting fixes nitrogen as well as your own lawn a legume. The process is endless and tends to stay in balance but in our tanks nitrogen fixation is something to be discouraged as it is a closed system.
Aquarist007
New member
Isn't that what occurs in the deep sand bed
