OregonReefer
New member
Yes, it's a bad idea
Deep Sand Bed -- Anatomy & Terminology
- Thread starter Whys
- Start date
DoctorMatt
New member
Thanks for the reply. Sand only it is. And now off to research the best types and cheapest way to purchase.
Aquarist007
New member
purchase a good quality medium grade argonite. I would not scrimp on the quality of live rock and sand I use. Substrate in a reef tank perform very important functions that it does not do in a fresh water tank from buffering to providing a platform for nitrifying and denitrfying bacteria.
wayne in norway
New member
There are people out there doing PhD's on deep sand beds and how they work. Look up Markus Huettel's research group in FLorida - it's an excellent resource for how water really flows thro' sand beds and what makes it happen. I will tell before you go there that it directly contradicts what Ron Shimek speculates, and their models and experiments are very robust. You don't need critters, water is pushed thro' the sand by the action of water running over the top, and all the little worms and such might do is stop too much clumping.
Yes , I've read those studies. The advection principle( water hitting obstructions canges water pressure and causes an uwelling and downward flow) is what I refer to earlier on in this thread. However, while advective flow is helpful in moving more water down into the bed than molecular diffusion,I think critters and channeling can help even more.
SpacedCowboy
New member
Morning all,
So, over in the DIY section, I'm trying to come up with a way of adapting the BeanAnimal silent overflow system to a standard reef-ready-plumbed tank. One of the suggestions is to use one overflow for the siphon and open-drain, and the other overflow for the emergency drain and sump return. To prevent stagnant water in the overflow, the suggestion is to almost fill the overflow with sand forming a small deep sand bed (see the link for a diagram on the page).
So, after reading this thread, I'm now more confused than ever over whether this would be a good idea. I've not come across anyone using their overflows as DSB's
So ...
Thanks for any help
Simon
So, over in the DIY section, I'm trying to come up with a way of adapting the BeanAnimal silent overflow system to a standard reef-ready-plumbed tank. One of the suggestions is to use one overflow for the siphon and open-drain, and the other overflow for the emergency drain and sump return. To prevent stagnant water in the overflow, the suggestion is to almost fill the overflow with sand forming a small deep sand bed (see the link for a diagram on the page).
So, after reading this thread, I'm now more confused than ever over whether this would be a good idea. I've not come across anyone using their overflows as DSB's
So ...- On the first page, there is a maximum depth recommended of 6" - is it likely to be a problem if I fill the overflow to ~20" deep ?
- Is such a small DSB likely to help at all ? The overflow is 10" x 6" but obviously will also contain a couple of pipes... Surface area ought to be ~50 square inches.
- I think I could remove it later if necessary (turn off return pump, scoop most of the sand out, add water and put the wet/dry shop-vac to work for the rest) but the positioning isn't ideal for cleaning or what-have-you. Is maintenance likely to be an issue ? I see some people saying they've not touched their DSB in years, if at all.
- Any other reasons you could think of not to use the overflows ?
Thanks for any help
Simon
Space cowboy, I don't understand the design and haven't read the 157 pg thread but if stagnant anoxic water that is the worry, it will stagnate in sand too. I don't think such a set up would add much to denitrification but might produce sulfate reducing bacteria and hydrogen sulfide and would be a potential maintenance headache. It's always good to have unobstructed emergency drains,imo.
TheFishMan65
New member
Place a cheap power head in the bottom of the overflow. No more stagnant water
doctorgori
New member
I also read a load of this thread...I'm not going to debate whether a DSB works or not or whether Dr.Ron or whomever is the ultimate authority or not....
BUT I have been on these forums, boards, intenet et for well over 20+ yrs and
I will say unequivocably you gotta take the assorted hobbyist "blanket statements" with a grain of salt....
When someone says that: "DSB absolutletly do not work" you can almost certainly bet they did not do ANY "controlled study", screwed up somewhere with thier maintenence/husbandry and then wholesale blamed a methodology for thier whoes
AND
Alternativley, when someone vehemetly expounds a method or a $500 purchase of a piece of equip or anything else, they got a vested interest in its defence; esp. when the investment is in either money or effort....hardly anyone ever wants to admit failure given the physical & emotional investments in something.....
...my take is you can make both methods work given the right amount of discipline & dedication....I had a DSB for 3yrs I think, same for a SSB .... beytond a doubt a DSB makes a more "interesting tank" if albeit a more risky one (relativley speaking)
BUT I have been on these forums, boards, intenet et for well over 20+ yrs and
I will say unequivocably you gotta take the assorted hobbyist "blanket statements" with a grain of salt....
When someone says that: "DSB absolutletly do not work" you can almost certainly bet they did not do ANY "controlled study", screwed up somewhere with thier maintenence/husbandry and then wholesale blamed a methodology for thier whoes
AND
Alternativley, when someone vehemetly expounds a method or a $500 purchase of a piece of equip or anything else, they got a vested interest in its defence; esp. when the investment is in either money or effort....hardly anyone ever wants to admit failure given the physical & emotional investments in something.....
...my take is you can make both methods work given the right amount of discipline & dedication....I had a DSB for 3yrs I think, same for a SSB .... beytond a doubt a DSB makes a more "interesting tank" if albeit a more risky one (relativley speaking)
I agree dsb's properly maintained can work. So can bare bottoms, shallow sand beds ,reverse undergravel set ups and on and on. I ran a dsb for over 7yrs. Now I use shallow beds with some puddles of deeper sand for animals who need deeper substrate.
For me, when someone claims one method ,a piece of equipment or elixir is better than another ,it's about asking: How it works? What does it do? What's going on chemically and biologically? Unfortunately questions like these are often met with defensive " my way or the highway responses" which often turn into pedantic tangential tomes and sometimes rants with no data to support them. All of this clutters the dialogue, obfucates the issues and makes it difficult for the aquarist to sort the wheat from the chaff without a good deal of lingering skepticism. I think varied points of view and sharing experiences is useful as long as the dialogue is long on facts and experiences and short on unbacked opinion.
There are many ways to run a reeftank or system. Sharing information can help the aquarist to select the approach best suited to his/her idiosyncharcies.
For me, when someone claims one method ,a piece of equipment or elixir is better than another ,it's about asking: How it works? What does it do? What's going on chemically and biologically? Unfortunately questions like these are often met with defensive " my way or the highway responses" which often turn into pedantic tangential tomes and sometimes rants with no data to support them. All of this clutters the dialogue, obfucates the issues and makes it difficult for the aquarist to sort the wheat from the chaff without a good deal of lingering skepticism. I think varied points of view and sharing experiences is useful as long as the dialogue is long on facts and experiences and short on unbacked opinion.
There are many ways to run a reeftank or system. Sharing information can help the aquarist to select the approach best suited to his/her idiosyncharcies.
doctorgori
New member
Wow...talk bout hitting the nail on the head ....
that kinda made me chuckle a lil
EdKruzel
Premium Member
Space Cowboy,
I had probably 8''s of sand in the overflows of my 210 planted tank. The tank itself was a fauna dream, but the overflows had more worms, pods and eventually filled with aptasia then cockroaches in a back alley New York restaurant. I have no idea if it helped with denitrification (tank never registered levels before that) but the soup-mix of fauna kept the few corals I did keep thriving. As stated it was a planted tank with mostly true marine plants and a few algaes, but I kept a beautiful purple goniopora, black and a common orange tubastrea that grew and grew without me directly feeding them. It certainly didn't hurt my tank, but other than being a great refugium, I can't say what other benefits it had.
I had probably 8''s of sand in the overflows of my 210 planted tank. The tank itself was a fauna dream, but the overflows had more worms, pods and eventually filled with aptasia then cockroaches in a back alley New York restaurant. I have no idea if it helped with denitrification (tank never registered levels before that) but the soup-mix of fauna kept the few corals I did keep thriving. As stated it was a planted tank with mostly true marine plants and a few algaes, but I kept a beautiful purple goniopora, black and a common orange tubastrea that grew and grew without me directly feeding them. It certainly didn't hurt my tank, but other than being a great refugium, I can't say what other benefits it had.
SpacedCowboy
New member
Thanks for the responses
I think I'll go for using the overflow with maybe a 8-10" DSB. If things start to not go so well, it's fairly easy to remove - just switch off the pumps and allow the system to reach equilibrium so there's no water transfer, then scoop out the sand and use the shop-vac for the last bits.
Seems like it's worth the attempt to get something more out of an otherwise-unused part of the tank
Simon.
I think I'll go for using the overflow with maybe a 8-10" DSB. If things start to not go so well, it's fairly easy to remove - just switch off the pumps and allow the system to reach equilibrium so there's no water transfer, then scoop out the sand and use the shop-vac for the last bits.
Seems like it's worth the attempt to get something more out of an otherwise-unused part of the tank
Simon.
MarlinDreams
Member
After finally reading the entire thread I have come to this decision, for those that use DSB and RDSB tell me what you think. I have plenty of room for all of these as we built a fish room when we built our house. I plan on having 1" of sand in the 215G DT, a refugium, a mangrove tank (for display only, not as a means of filtration) and a RDSB in a 75G tank. After reading all it seems to me that if I do a RDSB I can shut it off the system if something should go wrong. TMZ and Cap'N thanks for all of your insight. To the others, I also appreciate the time you took to reply, what an amazing wealth of knowledge there is on this site in which to choose from. By doing the DSB, I am in no way saying it is the best option, just the one I want to go with.
Regards,
JTC
Regards,
JTC
